My dad and grandad were both in the army, although neither had much choice, Grandad World war I (Ypres and the Somme) Dad, World War II (Tobruk, the last 3 years of it in a POW camp in Germany) so I am the first of 3 generations not to have been in the forces.

I think this tabloid armed forces fetish stemmed from the Falklands. Prior to that, I think the public perception of the forces was that they were brave but incompetent. Based on the Suez fiasco, the first 3 years of the second world war, which were a series of disasters, as was virtually the whole of the first world war, think Mainwarings platoon in Dads Army.

After the Falklands, they seemed to then be thought of as a kind of professional, lean, mean, killing machine, like Ross Kemp's Untimate Force. I think a certain type of person has to sign up for voluntary military service and the only time you get a cross section of society in the forces was under conscription, this leads to the examples of the type of behaviour mentioned earlier on here

I think it's more to do with Northern Ireland, and more generally part of a process of redefining the purpose of the British armed forces in the post-colonial era. What's the point of keeping a navy? Why would anyone sign up? In colonial times it was obvious. There was no need for Ross Kemp or, for that matter, documentaries about the Ark Royal or the Paras.

Those are symptoms. The cause is that some groups (TV, news media, the Mail/Express/Sun) have realised that they can create another revenue stream by building the hero myth amongst people of shallow understanding.

They have taken the hero narrative and adapted it to become a myth, to include almost anyone in the armed forces; whereas at one time the heroes were the real braves who won VCs and MMs. If the word 'hero' was used it was either sincerely meant to describe outstanding gallantry, or ironically.

The myth is quite modern; after WW1 and WW2 soldiers were generally seen as brave and conscientious men doing an unpleasant and dangerous duty, to be admired and respected, but not hero-worshipped - apart from anything else the great majority had no choice. That, in my recall, was also the case after the Falklands, even after Goose Green, the squaddies were brave, gallant and determined warriors, rather than heroes.

Once again we can see the squalid hand of Murdoch in the formation of the myth, the 'documentaries' on Sky 1, the articles and over-fulsome praise in the Sun, slavishly followed in the pursuit of circulation by the other tabloids. Other groups find it to their advantage (often financial) to continue and even enhance the myth. Eventually the myth cannot be challenged, to do so is seen as disrespectful (or said to be so) by some of the nastiest examples of hypocrisy in our society - this in fact is the true 'political correctness' - disagree with the Sun/Mail/EDL and you will get a kicking let alone a stern look or a letter from the HSE.

Quite. Compare Dimbleby senior's flights with Bomber Command to the bigging-up of their plight by journo's 'under siege' in the Rixos Hotel.

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Incidental to this, my dad did'nt have any particular animosity towards the Germans after the war. He said that Nazi fanatics didnt seem to percolate down to the low level of the Third Reich which was assigned the task of guarding other ranks from the Lancashire Fusiliers.

He said the ones he came across when in the camp were just blokes who were too old for regular service in the Wehrmacht and were just as pissed off as the British prisoners were. Just caught up in an insane regeime which they couldnt do anything about. The food, apparantly, was utter shite which was the main gripe he seemed to have

There are plenty of service people who simply join up to get a hand job off the rest of us 'for fighting for our freedoms'.

I am not going to give someone with that much self hatred what they want. They didn't fight for my freedom....

After all a calculated sacrifice with reward is hardly a selfless one....

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You may say I'm a dreamer.... but I'm not the only one....

That's a very good point. As far as I know, no racist/sexist comedian has ever been assaulted for telling crap jokes but try being even the slightest bit liberal in many situations and see what happens.

No-one, but no-one, in the armed forces currently can be said to be fighting for our freedom. We're not at imminent risk of an invasion from Afghanistan, Libya or wherever.

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"Even when you're a super-computer with an IQ of 2000 it's brown trousers time."

Reclaiming "methinks" for the nation

Latest blog post - 2011 - a review (updated 07/10)

I saw a chap being interviewed last week after signing a book of condolence for the Red Arrows pilot who died - he said it was important to 'honour our fallen'. Whilst I can understand this is a personal tragedy for the family and friends of the dead man I don't think an air show pilot is defending his country. Some do think this apparently.

Saving us from the tyranny of...erm...no smoke

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"Even when you're a super-computer with an IQ of 2000 it's brown trousers time."

Reclaiming "methinks" for the nation

Latest blog post - 2011 - a review (updated 07/10)

The deeper problem is patriotism.

Can anyone else see how 'loving' your country can involve not applying a double standard and/or hypocrisy?

Sure, I can see fairly obviously pragmatic reasons for defending yourself from those who would infringe on your freedom. That has nothing necessarily to do with patriotism.

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You may say I'm a dreamer.... but I'm not the only one....

It always strikes me as astonishing that, of all of the possible times and places one could have been born in, so many people were lucky enough to all be born in THE BEST PLACE EVER! People who haven't been past the end of their road are adamant that nowhere on the planet can compare to it's wonder. Same cocks rush into 'love it or leave it/you're with us or against us' rants if you dare question their rationale.

Perhaps more likely is that they are condemned to always live wherever they were born - lacking the balls to take a chance on somewhere new. So,,, you'd better fucking convince yourself that it is really of your choosing and not a prison without walls at all. Instant reaction formation - "No, I'm not sick of this dump - I LOVE IT ME! WAHEY!" All of the other losers in your local boozer are playing the same sad game - instant tribe. Look at all of the utterly pathetic football derby scenarios around the UK, where so many men with nothing special to offer can only find sufficient self-worth through opposition, not as stand-alone individuals with an internalised locus of evaluation. Extrapolate to a national level, or cultural, but this is always most visible on a regional level. The knacker-heads of every town are always consumed with rivalry with the next shit-hole town up the motorway and imagining great wrongs being committed against the honour of their town (witness absurd tattoos in pubs - "Hull till I die", "Altrincham 4 life" "Arbroath Massive". Small-minds and small horizons were made for each other. Patriotism is a natural extension - there is here, which is, necessarily, the best and there is 'everywhere which is not here', i.e. abroad and forrin. Everything else needs to be denigrated such that it serves to elevate what they are stuck with to tolerable levels.

Mailites claim to love the UK while fucking obviously hating it at the same time. Symptomatic of their lives/relationships probably.....

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You may say I'm a dreamer.... but I'm not the only one....

You're assuming that xenophobia is fundamental to patriotism. It doesn't have to be. Think of someone like Billy Bragg, who is very aware of his English identity, and proud of it. We're all shaped by the geography and the culture(s) of the places we grew up in; why deny what they have passed on to us?

It's possible to be proud of your patch of turf, and to regard it as unique and valuable, while accepting that every other patch has its own history and culture, a little different but equal and worthy of respect. Just as with individuals.

The problem is that, in our globalised jetsetting cosmopolitan age, the elite has abandoned nationalism. Wealth and status nowadays are attributed to a mobile class which works, lives, thinks and consumes globally, in multinational organisations or as worldwide superstars. These people have no need of a patrie; indeed, they regard it as parochial and unnecessary, a source of bureaucratic time-wasting and demands from the tax office. Flying the flag as an ideology, then, has been turned over to the state and to the non-mobile — the very people whose standard of life is threatened by globalisation, immigration and cultural change.

The left, fearful of the tabloids on this issue, has failed to make the case for an alternative, inclusive, multicultural, humanist, non-competitive patriotism. And so the iconography of English/British patriotism, from the cross of St George to Churchill and the blitz spirit, is being taken over by the far right, helped along by Gove and his prehistoric ideas about teaching history. This isn't going to end well.

You're confusing patriotism and nationalism.