Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe

Dacre Bleugh · **Joined:** Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:28 pm **Posts:** 470

crabcakes_windermere wrote:

It's an absolute nightmare, and in a rare moment of sympathy for Cameron I don't see what else he could have done because he's screwed either way and he knows it.

I don't think being in would have necessarily been brilliant either, and I don't think for one moment a new EU treaty 100% fixes anything (the US is basically the closest model, and that's hardly financially rock solid just now). But I can also see the worst case scenario coming to pass: a referendum, a hijacking of the vote by the vested interests of the few at the expense of many, and the UK becoming increasingly isolated and with a further weakened economy.

Plus of course as soon as we left the EU, the next demand would be made - foreigners out. Then the witch hunts start.

This.

We're kind of fucked either way. Cameron's "interest of the country" is really the "interest of the Square Mile", but signing up to a hastily put-together and foggy treaty which has predominantly been written by the Tory equivalents in Germany and France is not particularly appetising either. It will be interesting to see if all the Euro bankers from Paris, Frankfurt etc all abandon ship and seek asylum in the Square Mile.

I'm wondering if getting Britain out of Europe is being orchestrated as Cameron's "Falklands moment". Nothing like a bit of jingoism to capture the right-leaning working-class vote, whilst simultaneously giving them an economic kicking. It worked for Thatcher, Reagan, and Bush.

Tubby Isaacs · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:52 pm

Stephanie Flanders is good. And attractive.

Has Amanda Platell had a go at her yet?

Tubby Isaacs · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:03 am

Quote:

We're kind of fucked either way. Cameron's "interest of the country" is really the "interest of the Square Mile", but signing up to a hastily put-together and foggy treaty which has predominantly been written by the Tory equivalents in Germany and France is not particularly appetising either. It will be interesting to see if all the Euro bankers from Paris, Frankfurt etc all abandon ship and seek asylum in the Square Mile.

It's been hard to tell- is it proposed the Tobin tax goes to the EU, as has been suggested by the Commission? I don't know if Cameron knows. If it were then I think it is legitimate for him to say he's defending British interests. I'm agnostic on the Tobin tax, I should say. But can you imagine if the tax proposed had been on making cars? Merkel would be doing the same as Cameron.

Merkel might have been a bit smarter and not pissed everyone else off at this point.

Tubby Isaacs · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Ha, ha

Bernard Jenkin did the old "you're obsessed with the Conservative Party, not the issue"

Stephanie Flanders asked him how much time they'd just spent on the Conservative party compared with the issue. Jenkin said um, there was something at the start. Which sounded like it lasted about 5 seconds.

Tubby Isaacs · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:13 am

So the BBC give Newsnight 10 extra minutes (ie 10 minutes less than it lasts anyway on other days).

Scared of the Tories?

Here comes the review show. Where someone will say "this book works on a number of levels, but not very well on any of them"

I like Martha Kearney though. Do you reckon Amanda does?

Abernathy · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:26 am

I have a recurring sexual fantasy that involves both Stephanie Flanders and Martha Kearney.

But mostly Martha Kearney.

Big Rob · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:35 am

Not a fan of a European parliament myself however I am not a fan of the UK one(s) either.

I would say the biggest factor that helped maintain Britain's island mentality was the UK's refusal to sign up to (not part of the EU) Schengen, of course helped along by the Daily Mail. The Euro.... Well after the UK completely changes the way houses are bought and sold.

Of course the Euro had a problem from the start. It was half hearted. It should have been done properly from the start (with centralized lending and borrowing). Now there is a mess. On top of that you have politicians playing the demagogue.

Doesn't look good.

Big Rob · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:39 am

That said, as if leaving Europe is going to give Britain any more control over its destiny :lol:

Tubby Isaacs · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:41 am

What's wrong with the EU Parliament? If it had more powers, like scrutinising this deal, there might be a better turnout.

Actually, maybe that is the problem. With the crap level of interest, you can't really give it more powers.

Big Rob · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:47 am

Tubby Isaacs wrote:

What's wrong with the EU Parliament? If it had more powers, like scrutinising this deal, there might be a better turnout.

I am a power to the people person. The less government the better, UK or Euro. (That's the yank in me).

Unfortunately more is required because people are too untrustworthy and self serving to govern themselves (that's the lefty in me).

Tubby Isaacs · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:27 am

The EU parliament's elected though. It would seem a decent level to debate agreements at EU level.

I have an "anyone but Westminster" policy with assessing the appropriate level for decision making. Nation states are good for international sport though.

satnav · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:48 am

Whilst I agree with earlier posts that Cameron was stuck between a rock and a hard place I think it was wrong of him to declare his intentions before he even arrived at the talks. Had he turned up saying that he was wiling to listen to the arguments before reaching a decision he would have been seen more of a statesman.

I would imagine that in the short term Cameron's popularity in the polls will rise sharply but in the long term he will be a hostage to events. What will happen if the British economy falls back into recession? There will be no point turning to Europe for assistance because we have burnt our bridges there so who would bail out the UK?

If Cameron had not made such a big thing about the merits of fixed term parliaments he could have used the current situation to engineer a split with the Lib Dem's and call a snap election early in the New Year, such an election would probably see the Tories with a sizable majority.

smod · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:44 am

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/12/10 ... /#comments

Some interesting points. But if Cameron thinks he's silenced the hard right push for a referendum then he's sadly mistaken in the long run.

The Red Arrow · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:53 pm

Well it's all been said here already. Cameron serving himself and his chums rather than the U.K. I did spy a headline that read 'EU leaves Britain', just about summed it up for me.

smod · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:00 pm

Cameron's managed to upset the free market loving Swede's and other right-wing governments in Europe with his veto. As Faisal Islam points out:

Quote:

To sum up, it appears the PM claimed to have vetoed something that wasn’t there. What, in effect happened, is that he was vetoed, for trying to say no to a hypothetical future threat to an industry he believes needs safeguards, that would probably have preferred at this stage that he stay in the tent to prevent further damage.

Even if you believe 100 per cent in the argument that protecting the City is an in/out matter for Britain, logically you would have wanted to play your cards in a way that protected City primacy in the Eurozone financial services market, to keep Deutsche Bank, BNP Paribas, all the investment bank arms here. You would have used the threat of veto to deliver concrete results in conjunction with allies. The main strategic aim: to define the border between euro outs and ins in Britain’s favour.

This is not what happened yesterday. Put simply: what did the UK “win” that justified deploying the tactical weapon of the veto? I haven’t had a decent answer to that yet.

http://blogs.channel4.com/faisal-islam- ... veto/15844

Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe

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