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 Post subject: Re: Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:09 am 
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View from the NY Times

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LONDON — When he rejected a new European accord on Friday that would bind the continent ever closer, Prime Minister David Cameron seemingly sacrificed Britain’s place in Europe to preserve the pre-eminence of the City, London’s financial district. The question now is whether his stance will someday seem justified, even prescient.

Mr. Cameron refused to go along with the new European plan of stricter fiscal oversight and discipline hammered out in Brussels this week, in great part because of fears that the City would be strangled by regulations emanating from Brussels. He evidently felt he had little choice, and given the virulence of the anti-Europe sentiment in his own Conservative Party, few were inclined to argue that point.

“I said if I couldn’t get adequate safeguards for Britain in a new European treaty, I wouldn’t agree to it,” Mr. Cameron said in a news conference. “What is on offer isn’t in Britain’s interests, so I didn’t agree to it.”

Mr. Cameron said as early as October that the City was coming under pressure from the European Union. Some lawmakers were concerned even then that Brussels would pass laws or financial regulations that would move lucrative financial services from London to Frankfurt or Paris.

“London is the center of financial services in Europe,” Mr. Cameron said in October. “It’s under constant attack through Brussels directives. It’s an area of concern; it’s a key national interest that we need to defend.”

But many experts questioned Mr. Cameron’s decision to take such a hard line, abandoning Britain’s traditional strategy of acting both within and without the European club.

The summit was “a disaster for the U.K.,” Charles Grant, director of the Center for European Reform, a pro-European research group here, said in a statement. “For more than 50 years, a fundamental principle of Britain’s foreign policy has been to be present when E.U. bodies take decisions, so that it can influence the outcome.” What should really worry London now, Mr. Grant said, is that it no longer has a seat at the negotiating table.

In the past, said Olaf Cramme, director of the Policy Network, a left-leaning research group in London, Britain has never lost a single European vote regarding financial service regulations. But since it has “taken itself out of these preparatory negotiations, even as others move closer together,” he said, it is likely to find it much more difficult to get its way.

It was clear after a marathon session on Thursday that Mr. Cameron had alienated his continental counterparts. Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, told reporters, “I really don’t believe David Cameron was ever with us at the table.” Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, at one point snubbed Mr. Cameron in a hallway, refusing to shake his hand.

“The European Union is very much built on mutual trust, the relationships between leaders and the bonds of different countries,” Mr. Cramme said. “Cameron has taken a very tough line, and this will backfire.”

There was widespread confusion over how this would all play out. One view was that no matter what Mr. Cameron says, Britain will still be subject to European regulations, at least as far as Europe has jurisdiction over its non-British banks. Others doubted that the euro zone would long stand for having its main financial center in a nonmember country, and said it would inevitably begin directing its banking activities to Frankfurt or some other financial capital.

“The concern is that if the U.K. finds itself increasingly isolated,” said Bob Penn, a partner at the law firm of Allen & Overy. “You can see — if you’re a pessimist — that Europe could get its revenge on the U.K. by a whole array of bureaucratic and regulatory reforms.” In that scenario, Continental banks would be prohibited from dealing with the City unless the British firms adhered to Europe’s regulations.

Down that road lies Britain’s possible exit from the European Union, a prospect that many British Conservatives find positively alluring. “There is also an exciting sense that we are at the beginning of a very profound change in which our tortured relationship with Europe will be redefined, at long last,” said The Daily Mail.

An American banking industry official said he would not totally brush aside the possibility of retaliatory actions by Germany and France, but he said such responses were unlikely. After all, those countries have a long history of championing their global banks and would probably want to continue having an outsize presence in the City.

“The City has huge benefits for the E.U., and it’s not in the euro zone’s interest to see that evaporate and moved somewhere else,” Yael Selfin, a director at PricewaterhouseCoopers, said. “This is all part of a much longer bargaining process.”

London, many finance experts noted, is more an international financial center than a purely European one. Even if it were excluded from the euro zone, it would retain many of the attractions that have led Asians and Americans to locate major branches in London and to cut their deals by the Thames.

“It’s the time zone and the fact that English is their native language,” said an official at a European bank in New York. “That has not changed.”

In fact, many of the same questions about London’s competitiveness were raised when the euro zone was created, the official said, and Britain decided not to adopt the single currency but to stay with the pound. Despite fears that London would lose out to Frankfurt, the home of the European Central Bank, the City flourished.

It is possible, however, that over time financial firms may decide to stop investing in Britain, with new hires being placed in Zurich or Frankfurt rather than London. “In the worst case, they may face death by attrition,” one bank official said.

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 Post subject: Re: Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:43 pm 
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So...has Clegg finally grown a pair? I do hope Ed's on form tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:09 pm 
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Clegg's basically doing the old "You should have seen me in there! I was livid! But yeah, all you lot are going to lose your seats. But I've been promoted to the House of Lords. Or maybe Swindon Town Council."

Comic character:

Image



Hopeless leader:

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 Post subject: Re: Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:29 pm 
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I'm increasingly thinking Cameron will do well out of this politically. Even if we get a lot of regulation of the City, he'll be able to say the other countries are being petulant. (Which will probably be true). This doesn't of course mean he's played his hand well for Britain, but he'll be able to argue you couldn't trust those EU types.


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 Post subject: Re: Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:52 pm 
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It's depressing that he's seemingly got away with the 'veto' myth, when to my mind, the big boys just told him to piss off outside and go play with the traffic. Saddened to think that your average eurojoe in the street could be tarring us all with the same brush and thinking of us as a nation of wankers.

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 Post subject: Re: Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:49 pm 
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Do people think he's stopped all "the nasty stuff" for the City?

What's he actually vetoed? Something about stabilising the Eurozone which he said he wanted to succeed, and where he wants to export more stuff?


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 Post subject: Re: Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:53 am 
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Excellent contribution from Anthony Painter :

What sort of nation celebrates its own defeat?

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 Post subject: Re: Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:56 pm 
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Indeed. I'll be spreading that one around. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:00 pm 
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Well, well, well...Clegg's not at the party.

Ed needs help with his oratory skills. He's bundling them in across the line intead of smashing 30 yard screamers into the onion bag.

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 Post subject: Re: Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:01 pm 
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This is apparently the list of what Cameron wanted.

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/75193128

The last of those says that countries doing deals in the UK but with no other EU business be exempt from EU financial services regulation.

Funny that the others didn't agree to that, isn't it? It treats Britain as not being in the EU for this purpose. Maybe the others should treat the British exports Osborne wants as not being in the EU, and stick a tarrif on them. Did he think this would be accepted? Seriously?


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 Post subject: Re: Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:13 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
This is apparently the list of what Cameron wanted.

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/75193128

The last of those says that countries doing deals in the UK but with no other EU business be exempt from EU financial services regulation.

Funny that the others didn't agree to that, isn't it? It treats Britain as not being in the EU for this purpose. Maybe the others should treat the British exports Osborne wants as not being in the EU, and stick a tarrif on them. Did he think this would be accepted? Seriously?


I can't see Santa bringing that after what he's done this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:38 pm 
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Jesus, read the parliamentary debate and weep.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog ... -live-blog

Quote:
Labour's Jack Straw says EU leaders had a draft conclusion before them last week. What are the paragraph numbers of the clauses that would damage Britain? And can Cameron confirm that the treaty would not have affected the qualified majority voting rules affecting financial regulation.

Cameron says his judgement was that a new treaty was more of a threat to Britain than an inter-governmental agreement.


Which bit, you bullshitter?

Quote:
John Redwood, the Tory Eurosceptic, congratulates Cameron on the outcome of the summit. He says that Labour was too willing to give in.


Give in to what? What do you think Cameron's stopped happening?

Quote:
Peter Lilley, the former Conservative cabinet minister, says that in Europe, it is best to set out your position in advance and then stick to it.

Cameron says he agrees.


Try the same with the USA some time.

Quote:
Bill Cash, the Conservative Eurosceptic, says Cameron exerted all his influence to protect Britain. To adapt Pitt's phrase, does he believe Europe will learn from his example?


You've been waiting for this for 40 years. And this is the best point you can come up with?

Quote:
Labour's Sir Stuart Bell asks what Cameron is doing to help the eurozone.

Cameron says he does not think Britain should be helping Greece. But Britain is a generous country. It has lent £5bn to Ireland.


Was the question about helping Greece?

Quote:
Bernard Jenkin, a Conservative, says that despite what the BBC says, Cameron's move has the support of the public.


Funny, didn't hear much about how popular Lansley's health reforms were. Popularity be that important then. And bonus point for the BBC bashing.

Quote:
Andrea Leadsom, a Conservative, says Labour do not understand the importance of financial services.


Yeah, can't remember Gordon Brown saying anything suggesting the City was important.

Quote:
Nadine Dorries, a Conservative, accuses Nick Clegg of cowardice for not turning up in the Commons today.

Cameron says it's best not to antagonise your coalition partners.


Fuck off, Dorries. You didn't win the election. You got that yet?

Quote:
Jacob Rees-Mogg, a Conservative, says that Cameron is the toast of Somerset because he stood up for free markets and democracy.


You got any farmers in your constituency? No doubt you impress on them all the time the need for the need to give up subsidies and embrace the free market.

Quote:
Nicholas Soames, a Conservative, says some businesses in his constituency are concerned about what happened. Will Cameron reassure them that Britain will continue to play a key role in the EU?

Cameron says Britain's role in the EU is unchanged.


Shit almost a proper question from a Tory.

Quote:
Labour's Kate Hoey says a majority of Labour voters support what Cameron did. Shouldn't Britain be more internationalist?

Cameron says he has great sympathy with this view. Britiain should be restoring its links with other parts of the world.
Quote:

Cross the floor, you maverick bore. And the old "we need to concentrate on the rest of the world" lark. Because the EU stops you doing that, doesn't it?

Quote:
Sir Robert Smyth, a Lib Dem MP, asks if last week's decision will make it easier or harder for Britain to secure changes to EU regulations affecting the North Sea.

Cameron says it should not make any difference.


As long as no foreigners the old "bulldog" stuff, eh?

Quote:
Labour's Stephen Timms says Britain will be absent when EU financial regulations are drawn up in the future.

Cameron says that's wrong. The new group will not be able to take decisions that cut across the existing EU treaties, he says


Tell us about that thing you just mentioned about clearing banks and the Euro.

Quote:
Peter Bone, a Conservative, tells one of his traditional "Mrs Bone" jokes. The efforts of Cameron on Thursday night gave her great pleasure, he says.

Cameron says he's pleased.


Grow up.

Quote:
Chris Heaton-Harris, a Conservative, says that, given how much Britain contributes to the EU, it should become more like the trade unions in their relationship with Labour - and demand more for their money.


New Labour, party of the unions! Twat. Maybe Merkel can demand more, seeing she pays more, eh?

Quote:
Labour's Willie Bain asks if Cameron has more or fewer allies in Europe now.

Cameron says he has a huge number of allies in Europe, not least because of the 27 countries around the table, only four are run by socialists.


Ya boo! Those conservatives Merkal and Sarko didn't look very happy.


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 Post subject: Re: Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:55 pm 
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Cameron didn't circulate his draft in advance. He appparently produced a load of demands at 2.30am.

He never wanted an agreement, did he?

Here comes Nick Boles on Newsnight. No new proposals, he says, it was mentioned in the Commons.

Ah right, so the others have to read Hansard to know what we're doing.

Boles said Sarko was behind all the objections. He's a twat, indeed. So why did 22 countries go along with it him, and 3 others look like they well.

Boles is a smug fuckwit. He reckons Paddy Ashdown and others are unhappy because they're European dream died. How about the other 9 non-Eurozone countries? are they all Eurofanatics? You couldn't even get 1 of those to support you.


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 Post subject: Re: Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:33 am 
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Maybe this should be in another thread (Coalition Watch? do we have one?), but I find myself wondering just how much more the Lib Dems have to bite the proverbial pillow before they walk away from being the shat-upon partners of the coalition.

AV referendum? Filed in the circular filing cabinet for a generation, thanks to a royal shafting from Tories bigging up the NO campaign with a force the LDs simply failed to see coming.

Continued pro-European co-operation and integration in line with the Lib Dems' long held position on the EU? Forget it. Thanks to Cameron's pandering to Eurosceptic Tories, the UK is now marginalised without influence on key EU decisions that will nevertheless directly affect the jobs, prosperity, and economic prospects of millions of British people.

The Lib Dems' unique identity as a progressive, principled political party? Flushed right down the proverbial toilet by Clegg, Cable, and Alexander. Quite possibly at the expense, electorally, of Lib Dem candidates for decades to come.
The question of what is left for them looms large. And the answer is unavoidable. All that remains is the kudos of cabinet posts for Clegg, Alexander, Cable, and Huhne plus a few other junior misterial posts for the likes of the terminally embarassing Sarah Teather. A few still starstruck political anorak arseholes that can't believe they have government jobs and cars, and who are loathe to surrender these accoutrements of what the Tories have ensured remains only vicarious power. Christ it would make you spit, and it frequently does.

But the question still hangs there. What, any longer, is the point of the Lib Dems continung this toxic partership? Depressingly, the other part of the answer is that leaving the partnership now, and therefore precipitating an election, would expose the Lib Dems to electoral slaughter on an unprecedented scale - and before the new gerrymandered constituency boundaries have been enforced, to boot.

That, I'm afraid, is the bottom line. We are stuck with a reactionary, right-wing, increasingly
xenophobic, toxic Tory government that is bent on reducing the state and in doing so fucking ordinary people right up the sphincter, and all because the bottom line is that fucking Vince and Nick don't want to give up their ministerial limos.

Cunts.

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 Post subject: Re: Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:48 am 
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Loathe as I am to praise a commentator who relies on 'Only Fools And Horses' for material, there are always exceptions that prove the rule...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/co ... k/13703775


Quote:
Current protestations allowing Clegg to speak is contrived by Tory Central Office. This is similar to an episode from Only Fools & Horses.
Scene One: Act Two

Dell Boy (Cameron) upsets the Driscoll brothers in Europe with natural consternation in Tower Hamlets.

Rodney (Clegg) rises to Dells defence on 9/12/2011.

Uncle Albert in Central Office has a word in Rodney's 'shell like' on the 'QT' saying: 'Its not good for you to be too close to Dell with this trouble & strife son'.

Two days later Rodney has a right go at Dell in the papers giving him a proper '2 & 8'!

The Lib Dems are pleased to see their leader still has a pulse. The Tories are pleased because Dell put one up the euro.!

And so everyones happy and Rodney still has use of the Ministerial Reliant Robbin.

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