It is currently Sun May 19, 2013 8:05 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 116 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Mail vs Richard Dawkins
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:33 pm
Posts: 11831
Location: East London
We're going round in circles. Woolly liberals are indeed bad. But the people who were critical of the cartoons weren't all woolly liberals. I've never seen him engage with their points. He didn't in The God Delusion.

Cartoons aren't acts of actual violence, and nobody said they were as bad as death threats.

But the editor knows exactly what he's doing, and the affect it has. I bet he looked at that ENAR report and thought "fuck off, political correctness gone mad!"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mail vs Richard Dawkins
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:30 am
Posts: 5172
Location: Hearing Banjo Music...
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
lord_kobel wrote:
But no one was complaining that they were racist.


That's quite a statement. I was. I expect there was the odd Muslim who's cool about Muhammed but didn't think the chap with the bomb-headdress was very nice. How do you know they were all just upset about "the prophet"?


In order for them to be deemed racist then they have to demean racial characteristics that those on the end of the put down cannot do much about.

Saying they are racist when they are not is a cop out.

_________________
You may say I'm a dreamer.... but I'm not the only one....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mail vs Richard Dawkins
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:30 am
Posts: 5172
Location: Hearing Banjo Music...
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
But the people who were critical of the cartoons weren't all woolly liberals. I've never seen him engage with their points. He didn't in The God Delusion.


Like who?

_________________
You may say I'm a dreamer.... but I'm not the only one....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mail vs Richard Dawkins
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:30 am
Posts: 5172
Location: Hearing Banjo Music...
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
But the editor knows exactly what he's doing, and the affect it has. I bet he looked at that ENAR report and thought "fuck off, political correctness gone mad!"


The editor is NOT responsible for people taking things the wrong way. You have no idea what the editor though and whether he, undeservedly, lives with death threats.

_________________
You may say I'm a dreamer.... but I'm not the only one....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mail vs Richard Dawkins
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 11:46 pm
Posts: 22888
Location: In la France profonde, without personal transport...
Does any person have the right to make any statement without considering the effect that statement is likely to have?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mail vs Richard Dawkins
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:30 am
Posts: 5172
Location: Hearing Banjo Music...
Malcolm Armsteen wrote:
Does any person have the right to make any statement without considering the effect that statement is likely to have?


Depends on the statement.

_________________
You may say I'm a dreamer.... but I'm not the only one....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mail vs Richard Dawkins
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:38 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:33 pm
Posts: 11831
Location: East London
Gary Younge in the Guardian, for starters. It's a fairly standard leftist (as opposed to liberal) position.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2006/fe ... garyyounge

Dawkins does this a bit in that book (which I nonetheless like, and has some great passages in). He prefers the easy arguments for God- which is right because they hold undue influence- but then says "I haven't got time to deal with the sophisticated argument of the Bishop of Edinburgh". Dawkins sees one easily refuted argument- woolly liberals or creationists- and just goes for that.

It's times like that I remember he's a biologist who does some philosophy, not a philosopher. A great man, and a hero of mine, nonetheless.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mail vs Richard Dawkins
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:38 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 11:46 pm
Posts: 22888
Location: In la France profonde, without personal transport...
Rob: Can you define a principle of definition for statements which should be suppressed or simply not expressed?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mail vs Richard Dawkins
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:30 am
Posts: 5172
Location: Hearing Banjo Music...
Malcolm Armsteen wrote:
Rob: Can you define a principle of definition for statements which should be suppressed or simply not expressed?


Any free speech that does not involve reciprocity may be a candidate for suppression. However suppression is not what I read from your previous statement.

People need to take responsibility for opening their mouths when they spout crap.

People taking statements the wrong way, well that's irresponsible too.

_________________
You may say I'm a dreamer.... but I'm not the only one....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mail vs Richard Dawkins
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:33 pm
Posts: 11831
Location: East London
Well, seeing we know about it in some detail, let's take the Mail as an example. Do you think they write the volume of stories they do about Muslims, with the distortions they do, out of honest reporting? There's an agenda there to be nasty to them.

The affect is to make people hate Muslims. They're either stupid or they think this is a small price to pay to sell papers.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mail vs Richard Dawkins
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 11:46 pm
Posts: 22888
Location: In la France profonde, without personal transport...
What do you mean by "free speech that does not involve reciprocity"?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mail vs Richard Dawkins
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:30 am
Posts: 5172
Location: Hearing Banjo Music...
Yes I do think the mail is rather ironic in its treatment of muslims.

The mail hates Dawkins too.

_________________
You may say I'm a dreamer.... but I'm not the only one....


Last edited by Big Rob on Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mail vs Richard Dawkins
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:51 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:30 am
Posts: 5172
Location: Hearing Banjo Music...
Malcolm Armsteen wrote:
What do you mean by "free speech that does not involve reciprocity"?


When the opposing party states they want to take away your right to free speech.

_________________
You may say I'm a dreamer.... but I'm not the only one....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mail vs Richard Dawkins
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 11:46 pm
Posts: 22888
Location: In la France profonde, without personal transport...
But that isn't a principle. You can find someone to object to anything. What principles would you invoke as to what is permissible and what isn't?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mail vs Richard Dawkins
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:33 pm
Posts: 11831
Location: East London
Big Rob wrote:
Yes I do think the mail is rather ironic in its treatment of muslims.


ironic?!

There's the irony that Muslims objecting to racy stuff is bad, when white people doing it would be "family values".

But they mean what they say, I'm sure.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 116 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 8  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group