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 Post subject: Re: The Mail Vs America
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:47 pm 
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yumicho wrote:
Are you in the States or the UK currently?

I've not waited here (UK) for anything, but my husband had to wait 6 weeks for a physical therapist visit. I thought it was reasonable seeing as it was for pain management and not for helping him walk or whatever, but I guess it seemed excessive to my American relatives.


I had to wait a year to see a surgeon when Thatcher was in charge.

The weird thing about US insurance is it is not as 'free' as UK private insurance. In the UK you can get private insurance relatively easily by shopping online. Over here it is a freakin' nightmare with a shitload of paperwork to be completed ever year, including loads of details from my wife's employer. She can only work 20 hours a week otherwise my insurer won't cover her. There's freedom for ya....

In the UK BUPA is relatively easy and relatively inexpensive to get. I guess that's the advantage of having to compete with a free system.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mail Vs America
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:35 am 
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Whilst I have always been very happy with the in the past NHS I have noticed that over the last 18 months or so there has been a tendency for GP's to delay referrals for as long as possible. When I went to see my GP with a skin condition last year I told the GP it was similar to a condition I had about three years ago, instead of looking back through my notes the GP prescribed medication for a minor skin allergy. When I returned three weeks later the GP prescribed a slightly stronger form of medication. This went on for nearly three months and only after all the medication had failed did the doctor actually look back through my notes to conclude that I had indeed got psoriasis again.
I have also just gone through a similar process with my son who got a bad ear infection over two months ago the GP kept prescribing different anti-biotics and after four different types failed the GP then went back through his records to see he had been treated for ear infections in the past and referred him back to the hospital for an appointment in three weeks time.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mail Vs America
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Iam really getting fed up of the Mail highting these cases of british Citizens trying to get out of facing Justice in the States,whatever the rights or wrongs of the US/UK Extradition Act and more then likely it is onesided surely if a British Citizen has committed a crime in the US or any other country and that Country wanted this citizen to be extradited back to their country to face the chargers against them then surely this country has a right to ask the UK goverment for Extradition? :|

And another thing if it was a british citizen that was black do you think the Mail would care? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: The Mail Vs America
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:24 pm 
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Waterstones wrote:
Iam really getting fed up of the Mail highting these cases of british Citizens trying to get out of facing Justice in the States,whatever the rights or wrongs of the US/UK Extradition Act and more then likely it is onesided surely if a British Citizen has committed a crime in the US or any other country and that Country wanted this citizen to be extradited back to their country to face the chargers against them then surely this country has a right to ask the UK goverment for Extradition? :|

And another thing if it was a british citizen that was black do you think the Mail would care? :roll:


I think there are a couple of points about the current extradition treaty, and process that give grounds for concern.
* The first is the assymetric requirement for evidence (US appears to require little more than an accusation and a judge's signature, while UK needs to be pretty much ready for trial).
* Next following from this is that the UK accused in USA may have to spend years "on remand" (Not sure whether the term applies in the USA - held without bail in advance of trial) while the authorities prepare the evidence (That wasn't required at extradition).

The current case of the guy from Kent appears extremely unfortunate.
USA clearly think they have a case, his supporters disagree.
It would appear a lot better if some arrangement could see him paroled in this country until a full case could be prepared.
(I'm not sure of the practicalities of all that - what's to stop him hopping off to his hollow volcano nuclear base using an invisible helicopter).

Farage and the Mail would appear a lot more consistent if they made the same fuss about citizens geld at Guantanamo or Rendered to other countries for torture.


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 Post subject: Re: The Mail Vs America
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:29 pm 
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Bones McCoy wrote:
Farage and the Mail would appear a lot more consistent if they made the same fuss about citizens geld at Guantanamo or Rendered to other countries for torture.

But fighting for the freedom to smoke in pubs is much more important! That's what Winston Churchill died in the trenches for, and why Rosa Parkes nicked that bus...

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 Post subject: Re: The Mail Vs America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:38 am 
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Bones McCoy wrote:

I think there are a couple of points about the current extradition treaty, and process that give grounds for concern.
* The first is the assymetric requirement for evidence (US appears to require little more than an accusation and a judge's signature, while UK needs to be pretty much ready for trial).
* Next following from this is that the UK accused in USA may have to spend years "on remand" (Not sure whether the term applies in the USA - held without bail in advance of trial) while the authorities prepare the evidence (That wasn't required at extradition).


I've said before that I don't really know the ins and outs of the extradition treaty and it wouldn't surprise me if it was unfair to the UK. However, there seems to be a bit of misunderstanding, at least in regards to Tappin.

Tappin allegedly committed the crimes he's charged with in 2006. He was indicted in 2007 by a grand jury. Not all extraditions are going to require a grand jury because not all states use them, and the UK doesn't use them any more. But he's been charged by more than a judge's signature.

The evidence has been prepared in advance. The time leading up to the trial is not for the authorities to gather and prepare evidence. That is supposed to happen before someone is indicted. The period after indictment and before the trial is for both the prosecution and the defence to prepare for trial and to file motions. There is a right to a speedy, public, jury trial in the US (Bill of Rights). Technically, the prosecution is ready (barring pre-trial motions, which is actually a process which usually helps the defendant, not vice versa):

http://www.uscourts.gov/FederalCourts/U ... Cases.aspx
Quote:
Criminal cases include a limited amount of pretrial discovery proceedings similar to those in civil cases, with substantial restrictions to protect the identity of government informants and to prevent intimidation of witnesses. The attorneys also may file motions, which are requests for rulings by the court before the trial. For example, defense attorneys often file a motion to suppress evidence, which asks the court to exclude from the trial evidence that the defendant believes was obtained by the government in violation of the defendant's constitutional rights.


Everyone is entitled to a bail hearing. Not everyone is granted bail. Tappin has a history of trade with Iran and may still have contacts willing to protect him. It's not surprising that he was denied bail, and hopefully would have been denied it here if facing similar charges in the UK. People aren't bailed without charge in the US because the US can't hold people for long without charging them (which makes things like Gitmo all the more horrifying because it is specifically trying to circumvent these legal protections).

From what I understand, the biggest thing people complain about is the requirement of the US to have British requests meet "probable cause" requirements. Technically, the US requests would have already met these because this would have been a requirement for an arrest warrant, let alone indictment. It's not even that big of a hurdle, but a reasonable belief that someone has committed a crime.

Here's the grand jury indictment against Tappin, and here's the original complaint.


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 Post subject: Re: The Mail Vs America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:15 am 
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Timbo wrote:
Bones McCoy wrote:
Farage and the Mail would appear a lot more consistent if they made the same fuss about citizens geld at Guantanamo or Rendered to other countries for torture.

But fighting for the freedom to smoke in pubs is much more important! That's what Winston Churchill died in the trenches for, and why Rosa Parkes nicked that bus...


Did she nick the bus before of after she died under the Queen Mum's racehorse?


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 Post subject: Re: The Mail Vs America
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:38 pm 
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I think the complaint I have is that the arguments I have seen to keep Tappin here are emotional drivel.

The extradition treaty was apparently changed because it favored the UK. If they went too far then perhaps it needs changing. The US does have an annoying habit of setting laws that extend outside of its borders.

Even so... At face value it appears that Tappin is not really worthy of pity... If he did not know the consequences of his actions then he must be an idiot to sell things to Iran....

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 Post subject: Re: The Mail Vs America
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:41 pm 
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American soldier has a 'breakdown' and shoots nine children dead in their sleep in house-to-house shooting rampage in Afghanistan that killed 16 civilians

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BREAKDOWN!!!!!!!!!! this is an act of terrorism.... just becoz it's an American soldier doesnt give him or the media the right to twist the fact and portray it as a 'breakdown'.
- JAY, Harlow, 11/3/2012 17:27
Click to rate Rating 85


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Why is it only the Americans that hav 'breakdowns'? You don't see our British soldiers doing this? - MY, UK,_______you've forgotten Grenadier Guardsman Daniel Crook who bayoneted a ten year old Afghan boy to death who was pestering him for chocolate. Was in the DM last December. And the comment section was very quiet.....
- Mike, Ireland, 11/3/2012 17:25
Click to rate Rating 602

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 Post subject: Re: The Mail Vs America
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:13 pm 
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When of the things I've noticed with the Mail is how they like to make out that the British Army is better then the US Army for example when that Female British Aid Worker was killed in Afghanistan in 2010 during a US Special Forces raid to save her the Mail was outraged it's attitude was 'Dumb thick gung-ho yanks can't shoot stright and kill one of our own,and our lads would have done a better job.' The only reason why they didn't big it up more was because the parents of the Aid worker didn't blame the Americans.

2 years later and last weeks failed raid to save those oil workers in Nigeria which involved the SBS and the Mail was doing it's best to to play down the whole thing as one of those things that couldn't be helped what's the betting had US Special Forces had been involved the Mail wouldn't been so acommadating? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: The Mail Vs America
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:47 pm 
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I recall a Fry & Laurie sketch where they said that the main role of the SAS was to provide a sexual fantasy figure for Tory MPs and tabloid journalists.

Without wanting to come across as an armchair general, many people will say that the British army and special forces are generally considered better trained than their American counterparts, relying more on personal ability and initiative than on top of the range technology and going in mob-handed.

As for the reaction to the Nigeria incident and comparing it to American balls-ups, I'd chalk that up as another I/you/they situation.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mail Vs America
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:37 pm 
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The Mail where moaning yesterday that Cameron's trip to America was a love-in and maybe it was but I seem to recall the Mail kicking Tony Blair and Gordon Brown's vists to America in much the same way. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: The Mail Vs America
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:04 am 
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Actually, I remember them (and other right-wing rags) saying that Brown was snubbed by Obama during his visit. Remember, Obama returned the bust of Churchill, gave Brown some DVDs, and didn't greet him on his arrival. If anything, I think the OTT display with Cameron was to silence both domestic and British critics of Obama's treatment of Brown and to show the Brits the "special relationship" exists.


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 Post subject: Re: The Mail Vs America
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:33 pm 
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City of the Century that became a ghost town: Tragic portraits from the decaying world of America's industrial heartlands

Decaying?

It looks like Gary, Indiana is improving from those photos.

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