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Re: The Tories, Generally

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:49 am
by Watchman
Just wandering back to Claire Fox; have we heard what Norman Tebbitt has to say on sharing a "workplace" with an IRA supporter?

Re: The Tories, Generally

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:41 am
by davidjay
youngian wrote: ↑
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:19 pm
Another failure for the government’s crisis management skills is the politest take I can think of.
To use crisis management skills you have to consider yourself in a crisis, and this lot clearly don't. They're above the law, they flout the conventions of any decent democratic government. They don't deny, or excuse, or bluster, because they haven't done anything wrong. They're in power, therefore they take whatever they want, whether that be money, possessions or people.

Re: The Tories, Generally

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:49 am
by Timbo
Hi all - I've just had to do a little spring cleaning of posts hinting at the identity of the suspect. Let's all bear in mind that people are innocent until proven guilty, and Tories have libel lawyers, please!

Re: The Tories, Generally

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:52 am
by Malcolm Armsteen
>ahem<

A pendant writes:

People are considered innocent until proved guilty...

Re: The Tories, Generally

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:54 am
by Cyclist
A pendant writes:

Actually, people are *presumed* to be innocent until proven guilty etc etc.

Hope this helps


And Malcolm got in first :lol:

Re: The Tories, Generally

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:56 am
by Malcolm Armsteen
They aren't presumed - the wording is very important.

The accused is either innocent or guilty. They are treated as though they are innocent until proof (either way) is offered and considered.

Re: The Tories, Generally

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:02 am
by Cyclist
I wasn't correcting you Malc. You hit submit a split second before I did.



Going on the actual words, why is it known as the presumption of innocence if the accused is not actually presumed to be innocent?

The English language is sometimes a crazy thing.

Re: The Tories, Generally

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:12 am
by Malcolm Armsteen
Didn't think you were correcting!
To presume means to reach a judgement. To consider means to make no decision - yet. Without prejudice, literally. I've no idea what happened to the original wording, that slithery slide of meaning that so infuriates Abers - but in this case he's right.

Re: The Tories, Generally

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:22 am
by Abernathy
Ahem. A pedant (for whom this has long been an intolerable personal bug bear) writes again. The principle on which the English judicial system relies, is, indeed, the "presumption of innocence" - either, as Malcolm points out, until the confirmation of the presumption via the due consideration of evidence, or its rejection in favour of a confirmation of guilt via the same process.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence

The problem that I have with the phrase "innocent until proved guilty" is that it is a logical fallacy. One is EITHER innocent, OR one is guilty. The two states are mutually exclusive. One cannot simultaneously be both, or be one, then subsequently be transformed somehow into the other. Even if one is presumed to be innocent, that presumption is provisional, and one is guilty (and ONLY guilty) in actuality when that guilt is confirmed via the judicial process.

Re: The Tories, Generally

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:01 pm
by youngian
Only one letter away from Rees-Mogg turning a blind eye

Re: The Tories, Generally

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:11 pm
by Cyclist
Ok, I'll buy it. Which letter needs adding/ changing/removing to change that tweet to Rees-Mogg turning a blind eye? I've read the tweet several times and I cannot for the life of me see how to change its meaning by amending one letter.

Re: The Tories, Generally

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:19 pm
by Kreuzberger
RAVE ;-)

Re: The Tories, Generally

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:44 pm
by Cyclist
I do wish people would just say what they mean rather than making cryptic posts for the readers to work out. It's not meant to be a fucking guessing game.

Oh, and that one letter change only really works if you believe there is such a thing as legal rape.

Re: The Tories, Generally

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:17 pm
by Timbo
Did they manage to stop an illegal raven in his constituency? Or a grave? :?

Re: The Tories, Generally

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:47 pm
by Kreuzberger
Illegal Dave. That referendum was far from legit.