Discussion of the UK Government
:sunglasses: 72.2 % :grinning: 27.8 %
By MisterMuncher
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Malcolm Armsteen wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:24 pm
I'm sure that an independent judiciary will not allow this to stand, but as has been said 'the Saj' has made a mark for the slack-jawed mouth breathers to applaud like performing seals, and no matter the legal outcome, a couple of years down the line, his mission has been accomplished.
He's purposely setting up a narrative that the judiciary are out of touch with "reality" and "common sense", no matter how they rule here. That's insidious.
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By Watchman
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I wonder what approach will be taken, if and its a bit if at the moment, the government makes a decision on Trumps demand that now he's captured all the bad guys in Syria, individual countries should now try them/takes responsibility for them.
I also see his narrative that if Europe does do anything they will just turn up there and embark on a campaign of terror
By Andy McDandy
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I don't know about learning difficulties, but I'd say she's likely indoctrinated and traumatised. Not thinking straight and easily manipulated.
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By youngian
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Biggus Robbus wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:27 am
She is a British citizen. Javid is threatening to take away that citizenship without due process. That is an abomination.

If she has to face criminal charges or have her child put up for adoption (preferably her family could step in) then so be it.

Pandering to popular opinion instead of following the rule of law is uncivilized. Isn't that what we hate about ISIS? That their punishments are arbitrary?

Catkins wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:02 pm
Additionally, at a time when British Jews have concerns with anti-semitism, I don't want a government removing citizenship from people because they might technically have access to another nationality.
I'm far less afraid of this stupid woman than demagogues destroying judicial checks and balances with the consent of a baying mob.
By Malcolm Armsteen
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Bangladesh have stated, officially, that she does not have Bangladeshi citizenship.

After all, would you want to claim this potential nightmare?

By lord_kobel
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Long post taken from FB:
Lewis Denby wrote:I'm super horrified by so many responses to the incredibly complicated Shamima Begum case (including by some people on my FB list tbh). "It's ISIS, even a 15 year old should know how dreadful a group ISIS is", "She shows no remorse", and "She's a threat to national security" seem to be the most common problematic responses. I've been listening to Rukmini Callimachi's phenomenal podcast Caliphate again recently - so largely for my own sanity, I'm gonna break these down based on what I've learned.

1) You gotta understand that ISIS has an entire recruitment strategy based around taking vulnerable Muslim children - kids who feel isolated and out of place and insecure about their faith - and making them feel like they have a new family. They hang out on message boards and groom kids, in the same way child sex offenders do. Over time, they paint ISIS as the misunderstood side of the story. Illustrate how they've been turned into the boogieman by the West. Show how Western society will never appreciate them they way ISIS does. They make lonely kids feel safe and wanted and make their home nation seem like the real enemy.

Then - here's the genius bit - having spent the past however long praising them for their faith, they then start to cast doubts in their mind. "Wait, you didn't know you were supposed to reject those around you who aren't Muslim? Have you even read the Quran? Maybe you don't understand this as much as we thought you did..." They make vulnerable kids feel safe and welcome for the first time in their life, then play on their insecurities to get them to fall in line. They employ professional recruiters to carry out this strategy. It's a dastardly sales technique, masterful psychological manipulation. Begum may have known what she was doing, but she didn't fully understand why.

2) Once you're in ISIS, their MO is essentially threefold, two of which are relevant here. One, they break down your empathy. Two, they convince you that everything they're asking you to do is religiously justified.

So they have counsellors who coach you through the process of leaving behind your family. Who teach you how to suppress any feelings of shame. For the men, who sign up for battle, they walk you through the emotions you're gonna feel when you first kill someone. They start you off in the slaughterhouse, then they have realistic mannequins that you kill, then you do your first kill as part of a firing squad, and all along there are people whose job it is to work with your emotions with the goal of removing your ability to fucking *feel* anything.

You're living in a community of people who are constantly showing you how the group's actions are justified. They have educated acedemics, who teach you how to interpret certain sections of the Quran in new ways. Remember, you're a vulnerable, probably uneducated kid. They use that authority to convince you. And there's no one around to help you challenge that. Over time, as your emotions are worn down, you grow to believe that to show remorse would be sacreligious anyway. It is a tremendously common thing among new ISIS defectors, to have realised there are problems with ISIS and to want to leave, while refusing to accept that you regret joining and supporting them in the first place. Radicalisation takes time to deprogram.

3) Yeah, maybe she is a threat to national security. Who knows? I have to trust that the correct procedures will be followed to ascertain this, and that if she is, she will receive a custodial sentence, just like other people who are a threat to national security or those around them.

But to strip her of her citizenship? That's playing into ISIS' hands.

Remember I said their MO is threefold? The third thing they do is they make you believe that no one outside of ISIS will ever take them back. It's how they get people to stay for long enough to break them. They take vulnerable, isolated children, and make them believe that ISIS is the only place they will ever again be safe and loved. And every time a country behaves like this to one of their own citizens, you can be sure that becomes propaganda material. "Look at the callous, uncaring West, rejecting unhappy Muslim kids yet again."

The way we break ISIS' propaganda and programming strategy is by proving it to be demonstrably false. Let Begum be tried in a court of law if needs be. But for goodness sake, bring her back, and show some fucking humanity. She was a child. She was groomed and brainwashed and programmed and had her entire sense of self destroyed and rebuilt by a murderous cult. To say she asked for it, that she deserves what she got, is the height of victim blaming.

I implore anyone who hasn't listened to Caliphate to do so - it's an extraordinary bit of reporting, phenomenal insight into a group that has surprisingly complex ways of operating, and how they managed to get tens of thousands of troubled kids to join up with them. It's terrifying, but I think it explains a lot of this really well.


Couple of updates.

1) Welp, this went a bit viral, that's a surprise. In light of this I want to clarify two things that have been strangely misconstrued a few times.

One: You can feel free to take this as a complete and utter rejection of ISIS and its beliefs and and behaviours. It is a terrorist group, a fake state that has only ever existed to expand and exert power, in the name of a religion that almost exclusively rejects its ideologies. ISIS has done, and continues to do, awful things, one of which is to employ sophisticated indoctrination techniques to convince young and vulnerable children to join its ranks. This makes it an enormously complicated situation - because in a very real sense, they are both criminals and victims.

Two: I have no idea whether or not Begum is a security threat. The correct way to deal with this, if there is a suspicion that she is, would be to put her on trial. Due process can then be followed to determine the best way to deal with the situation in order to protect the wider population. All I know is that ISIS indoctrinates children and that, in this sense, she is a victim. In any case, she is not just being treated as guilty before being proven so, but ripped of her citizenship - something so fundamentally a part of a human being's rights - before there has been any attempt to understand the circumstances of her joining ISIS, and pretty much exclusively because of the media attention on her specifically (and not the hundreds of other people who have been allowed to return from the IS and keep their citizenship). That's what is at issue here.

2) The foreign minister of Bangladesh has just now released a statement saying Begum cannot claim Bangladeshi citizenship. This means that if the UK proceeds with its plans to revoke her British citizenship, Begum will be stateless. This means she will not legally be able to settle anywhere on the planet. It is to sentence her to life as either a refugee or a criminal. It is also in breach of international law but I honestly think that's beside the point.
https://www.facebook.com/lewis.denby/po ... 1100250117
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By Timbo
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As a slight aside - I'm surprised Assad hasn't had these people all hanged and dropped into a deep hole somewhere. As things stand, I can't imagine much beyond token protest from many of the home nations, it would probably even curry him some much-needed favour on the international stage. As for the young lady in question here - having seen enough videos of people like me being thrown off tower blocks, and knowing she'd quite happily see the same done to me, I'm really struggling to give any hint of a shit about her personally. I do, however, have grave concerns about the precedents being set in this case for the sake of what amounts to one man's political career. The truth of the matter is, if she hadn't given successive media interviews in which she 'did a Corbyn' - prevaricating on answers and qualifying statements in a way that allows extraction of a menacing soundbite, she would have most likely quietly found her way home by summer. Now we are at the point where even if she does succeed in returning to the UK, she will most likely be lynched the minute the police turn their back on her for a second. Both she and Javid have a lot to answer for.
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By Biggus Robbus
Bangladesh: "So that aid budget cut?"

To be fair this is application of decisions based on on politicians reading the comments on right wing articles. Making out the judiciary to be the "enemies of the people".

This is way more frightening than the non existential threat to Western civilisation that is ISIS.
By Oblomov
I'm a few weeks late with this but a wobbly-joweled blowhard (so many amongst the Tories that I struggle to keep track of them) was stating that Shamima Begum should be the catalyst for updating centuries old treason laws and blah blah blah.

That got me thinking that as defence secretary, didn't Liam Fox give his mate classified information to sell at a profit? Surely that makes for some sort of double standard here?
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By Samanfur
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Javid is currently making a statement on the Windrush compensation scheme to the Commons.

He's referring to "compliant environment" policy, as though that was what even his own predecessors called it, or it even compared semantically.

And as I'm typing, he's just tried the "the mess we inherited" defence.

Nasty piece of work. Own your dungheap, Tories.
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