Topics about the Labour Party
:sunglasses: 73.5 % ❤ 1.5 % :thumbsup: 5.9 % :grinning: 11.8 % 🧥 1.5 % 😟 1.5 % :cry: 1.5 % :shit: 2.9 %
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#591924
crabcakes_windermere wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:28 pm
I saw that Michael Rosen thing. It's a good article, but I still despair that so many people see the issue in such a polar way, as if the only two possibilities are that Corbyn is the new Hitler or the entire antisemitism thing is 100000% fabricated. Corbyn can be a lifelong campaigner against bigotry (as he often reminds us... :roll:) AND have the support of some Jewish people AND not personally be antisemitic AND STILL be weak on antisemitism and have blind spots/be overly generous in giving the benefit of the doubt to what other people say or do. Just like he can get a hard time in the media AND still be absolute dogshit useless on occasion. Or that he can do something genuinely great, like the NHS document reveal, AND totally mistime a speech after the London Bridge attacks to wang on and make it about Iraq (and for the record I don't think he's necessarily wrong - I do think his timing and his inability to resist getting in an obvious public dig at Blair and to trumpet his own thoroughly un-unique opposition to invasion when there was so much to be made of how Tory police and prison cuts had led to this is fucking *woeful*).

He's a mediocre politician who got where he is through luck, not ability, and is prone to overly simplistic views and falling back on long-held and often outdated assumptions. His blatant seeing of constant antisemitism accusations as 'a bother' is entirely in fitting with this, as is his willingness on the one hand to talk with anyone and tackle abuse (I'm sure these are genuine), and on the other to see e.g. a relatively well-off jewish person complaining about abuse while not actively being sufficiently critical of Israel as not really a high priority problem. Even if they're one of his MPs.

I'm not Jewish, but if I were I could see how concern about people he enables through inaction (as opposed to he himself being any sort of direct threat) would be troubling. But...Corbyn himself will probably be gone from Parliament by the next election, he will not be winning a majority in this election, and in minority govt. anything he does will be tempered by whoever he has to do a deal with. Whereas the Johnson-style Tories in majority will be racist and bigoted enough for everyone just because they are, and those Tories who aren't personally bigots will be too spineless to stand up to him (as the ones that weren't are already out). On that basis, I hope sensible Jewish people take the Chief Rabbi's comments with a pinch of salt. Yes, someone else other than Corbyn would be preferable - but he himself is infinitely preferable to Johnson, and his effects and longevity as PM considerably more limitable and controllable.

EDIT: TL;DR, if you have to vote for someone who's a bit shit, don't vote for the guy who scores 10 on the shit-o-meter just because you're disappointed that the other guy scores as highly as a 4.
I agree talking this through the prism of is Corbyn an anti-semite is unhelpful. However I'm willing to bet that the Chief Rabbi is more representative of the Jewish Community than Micheal Rosen is.
#591935
Who knows? He may literally represent them as a figurehead, but I his views might just be representative of a certain subset of more religiously active Jewish people, and that in itself might skew one way in opinions.

After all, is Corbyn representative of the majority of Labour supporters, MPs and members?
#591950
The Red Arrow wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:53 pm
His election as such would seem to confirm this.
He did say Labour supporters and MPs.....
oboogie liked this
#591960
Interesting thread on a particular survey on anti-Semitism from Noah Smith of Bloomberg.



He takes issue with whether some of the statements about Israel (with which, I presume, some leftwingers agreed) are actually anti-Semitic.

I think it's pretty undeniable that lots on the "outside left" speak about Israel in a way they don't speak about other places much worse. That comes across as anti-Semitic to a lot of people, though it maybe that Israel's connection to America is what's really spurring it.
oboogie liked this
#591974
I'll see your Spectator columnist and raise you a Canary.
It is McCarthyism. Truly repugnant and dangerous misdirection.


Samedi 7 Mars 2009
how here Hatred has turned him into a Jew - Deconstructing Nick Cohen
https://www.alterinfo.net/how-here-Hatr ... 30504.html
#591976
Again, it's all or nothing when the truth is somewhere inbetween. Cohen clearly 'dislikes' Corbyn a great deal (*ahem*). Mendoza is pathologically incapable of seeing anything wrong in anything Corbyn does. The Spectator is old-fashioned bullshit. The Canary is new-fashioned bullshit. But now, any useful information that could be gleaned from that survey is lost in criticism of the tweet authors and who they write for.
spoonman, oboogie, Cyclist liked this
#591981
A while ago I read something saying that in other parts of the world that have suffered wars and genocides, there is in some circles an anger that so much attention is placed upon the European holocaust, while others are seemingly relegated in importance. To the point that some say that it only gets the attention it does because everyone involved in it was white (see also the attitude to Nazism in, for example, south east Asia, where you'll find much less of a revulsion with Nazi imagery because "Hitler didn't do anything to us").

Now, that's a really hard one to engage with. Especially because it's hard not to argue that a certain amount of colonialism and mighty whitey does creep in. Why are we appalled at the actions of Israel, but not so vocally at, say, Burma? Because they're white and modern and - crucially - ought to know better? Or are we dismissing the Burmese government with an attitude of "What do you expect, they're savages".

Perhaps that's one of the things that makes the European Holocaust so much more real to us in Britain. The people killed had cars, and phones, and record players. They lived in homes not unlike ours. It happened in a place we can associate with, rather than far away or long ago. We can visualise it more immediately than perhaps we can with other atrocities.

I, and many on the left, try to empathise with everyone as human beings. But it seems that we do hold people to different standards based on our knowledge of them and our expectations. Not sure what point I'm trying to make, other than to say that as a white straight male Briton, I don't think I'm in any position to judge how others react to things.
Cyclist liked this
#591982
BREAKING NEWS Jeremy Corbyn FINALLY says sorry for anti-Semitism in the Labour Party but insists he has 'dealt with it' as he is savaged by Philip Schofield in bad-tempered exchange on This Morning
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... lt-it.html
#591984
Andy McDandy wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:50 am
A while ago I read something saying that in other parts of the world that have suffered wars and genocides, there is in some circles an anger that so much attention is placed upon the European holocaust, while others are seemingly relegated in importance. To the point that some say that it only gets the attention it does because everyone involved in it was white (see also the attitude to Nazism in, for example, south east Asia, where you'll find much less of a revulsion with Nazi imagery because "Hitler didn't do anything to us").

Now, that's a really hard one to engage with. Especially because it's hard not to argue that a certain amount of colonialism and mighty whitey does creep in. Why are we appalled at the actions of Israel, but not so vocally at, say, Burma? Because they're white and modern and - crucially - ought to know better? Or are we dismissing the Burmese government with an attitude of "What do you expect, they're savages".

Perhaps that's one of the things that makes the European Holocaust so much more real to us in Britain. The people killed had cars, and phones, and record players. They lived in homes not unlike ours. It happened in a place we can associate with, rather than far away or long ago. We can visualise it more immediately than perhaps we can with other atrocities.

I, and many on the left, try to empathise with everyone as human beings. But it seems that we do hold people to different standards based on our knowledge of them and our expectations. Not sure what point I'm trying to make, other than to say that as a white straight male Briton, I don't think I'm in any position to judge how others react to things.
Or maybe it's the 6 million dead.
#591985
The Weeping Angel wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:24 pm


Or maybe it's the 6 million dead.
I suggest you re-read what Andy has written, and then continue to re-read it until you understand it.
#591986
Safe_Timber_Man wrote:BREAKING NEWS Jeremy Corbyn FINALLY says sorry for anti-Semitism in the Labour Party but insists he has 'dealt with it' as he is savaged by Philip Schofield in bad-tempered exchange on This Morning
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... lt-it.html
They must have missed his apology on Sophie Ridge on sunday. :roll:

lord_kobel wrote:
The Red Arrow wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:55 am
I'll see your Spectator columnist and raise you a Canary.
Are you even trying anymore?
Are you?
crabcakes_windermere wrote:Again, it's all or nothing when the truth is somewhere inbetween. Cohen clearly 'dislikes' Corbyn a great deal (*ahem*). Mendoza is pathologically incapable of seeing anything wrong in anything Corbyn does. The Spectator is old-fashioned bullshit. The Canary is new-fashioned bullshit. But now, any useful information that could be gleaned from that survey is lost in criticism of the tweet authors and who they write for.
Exactly this. Some of you groovers really need to look at your own prejudices. And yes, I'll admit that sometimes it's hard work looking at mine (see McDandy, A, above).
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