Topics about the Labour Party
:sunglasses: 44.4 % ❤ 5.6 % :thumbsup: 5.6 % :grinning: 33.3 % 😟 5.6 % :cry: 5.6 %
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#539700
crabcakes_windermere wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:57 pm
Winegums wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:27 pm
I was going to ask why, but this is literally only about brexit isn't it. How do you think it would go if the government ignored a referendum?
Absolutely fine, given it was an advisory, non-binding referendum based on subsequently debunked figures, may have seen one of the official campaigns illegally overspend (and in cahoots with a firm conducting exceptionally questionable activities), and it has become increasingly apparent that Brexit will damage the economy for decades, has a high chance of undoing the Good Friday agreement, will see the NHS sold off to US concerns , chlorinated chicken on shelves etc - not to mention the public turning against it anyway.
It doesn't matter if it was "non-binding", it was the express opinion of the people, and to ignore it and try to rules-lawyer out of brexit is not going to fly. If this was all set up prior to brexit maybe it'd work, but you can't retrofit the rules. The public don't care if there was misinformation, they don't care about lies. Anything short of vote-stuffing doesn't really make the public cry foul of elections.

But if you ignore the public vote. If you say "nah we're staying, get fucked" then prepare to see a much uglier right wing force emerge. A re-invigorated, anti democracy right. Once people start to feel disenfranchised this whole debacle will take a meaner turn.
davidjay wrote:
Winegums wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:56 pm
I genuinely want to know why you want Loser Clegg in Number 10. Or Blair. Given the failure of centrism and 3rd way politics, what do you think they have to offer?
Because Corbyn's been such a rip-roaring success so far, hasn't he?

And I'm still waiting for your answer to the question - if he's so wonderful and popular, why isn't he storming ahead in the polls?
Corbyn isn't in power though? My point is why would Blair or Loser Clegg be better in number 10?

Who the fuck cares what the polls say outside of elections? Didn't you see the last election where we closed a 19pt lead? They mean fuck all while the press can say and do what they want, and the public barely follows politics outside of elections.
#539703
Nice ducking of the question. Yet again you avoid the real issue because trying to get elected is a lot harder than sneering at 'centrists' and blaming the press. Well done on closing that nineteen point gap though. Pity we lost the election but you can't have everything.
Cyclist, oboogie liked this
#539717
If Labour feel they have to go along with the result, fine. But why cant they be honest about the consequences?

Laying out some stark truths such as having to scale back investment in the NHS, inability to give out public sector pay rises etc.

Might focus a few minds.
#539720
Winegums wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:57 pm
It doesn't matter if it was "non-binding", it was the express opinion of the people, and to ignore it and try to rules-lawyer out of brexit is not going to fly. If this was all set up prior to brexit maybe it'd work, but you can't retrofit the rules. The public don't care if there was misinformation, they don't care about lies. Anything short of vote-stuffing doesn't really make the public cry foul of elections.

But if you ignore the public vote. If you say "nah we're staying, get fucked" then prepare to see a much uglier right wing force emerge. A re-invigorated, anti democracy right. Once people start to feel disenfranchised this whole debacle will take a meaner turn.
It was the misinformed will of the people 3 years ago. And there were no rules before brexit because of Cameron's idiocy, so there's nothing to 'retrofit' because there was nothing in the first place - it's all uncharted territory here and there are no rules.

Purely on deaths from old age, the demographic has shifted to remain now - let alone the increasing predictions of 'project fear' all coming true turning the tide of public opinion. The public now aren't the same public that existed then, and the 'will of the people' is not some time-locked immutable thing - it's fluid and shifting. It's not a case of 'nah, we're staying - get fucked'. Unless someone does something, it's 'nah, we're going even though you've changed your mind - get fucked'. And we really WILL be fucked.

If we're talking disenfranchisement, then that will really do it. You think anyone who voted Labour at the last election on the basis of not wanting May's Brexit is going to do so again now their faith has been rewarded with Corbyn pushing for the exact same thing as Rees-Mogg? And how are the right going to get nastier than fraudulent overspend, manipulation of voter information, the Tories at the beck and call of the DUP and the emboldening of groups such as Britain First? What else exactly are they going to do that they're not already doing or planning to?

The funniest part of this is, of course, that if Corbyn changed his mind tomorrow you'd be singing his praises on his tactical nouse and connection to the people and so on. In the meantime, you're stuck defending him enabling the worst Tory project in history using the exact same 'will of the people' line as Gove, Boris et al.

Sure, he might lose if he switched to remain. But at least he'd then lose on the right side - standing up for the weakest and those who will be decimated by this idiotic power grab. I thought that was something important to 'the left' - to be morally right even if it means an uphill struggle. Apparently not.
Cyclist, visage, oboogie liked this
#539723
Winegums wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:56 pm
I genuinely want to know why you want Loser Clegg in Number 10. Or Blair. Given the failure of centrism and 3rd way politics, what do you think they have to offer?
Has it failed? The "centrist" candidate has won every election since 1997. Blair three times, Cameron acted centrist in 2010 and 2015, May was less hard right than Corbyn was hard left in 2017.

Why do I want Clegg or Blair in Number 10? Because they're sensible politicians who get shit done and whose ideas would make the country a better place.
Cyclist, oboogie liked this
#539727
crabcakes_windermere wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:47 am
I thought that was something important to 'the left' - to be morally right even if it means an uphill struggle. Apparently not.
I think what they think is important is to agree with Corbyn, regardless.

He's for the many not the few, yet hes supporting a policy that will hurt the many and enrich the few.

He talks about helping the poor, yet brexit will disproportionately hurt the poor.

He's a hostage to his Bennite hatred of the EU, and he's prepared to throw the vulnerable under a bus to get it.
Cyclist, oboogie liked this
#554512
It's disgraceful that a Labour leader thinks we should speak to unsavoury characters who we don't agree with TBH. You'd never see Jeremy Corbyn doing that with, say, Hamas.
#554560
He literally wants us to talk to fascists, (I am amused). Why do libs fuckign love the fash so goddamn much?

Also the PLP and right wing press has shat itself over Corbyn talking to Hamas. And yet here they are giving him a sloppy beej for liking Bannon.
#554562
People for whom the word 'liberal' is an insult:

Donald Trump. Nigel Farage. Katie Hopkins. Tommy Robinson-Yaxley-Lennon. Can anyone think of anyone else to add to this list?
#554566
Most left wing people hate liberalism too, my dude. Liberalisms attempts to supplant socialism hasn't gone unnoticed.

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