Topics about the Labour Party
:sunglasses: 57 % ❤ 1.2 % :thumbsup: 11.6 % 😯 2.5 % :grinning: 19.4 % 🧥 0.4 % 🙏 1.2 % 😟 2.9 % :cry: 2.9 % :shit: 0.8 %
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By crabcakes_windermere
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#614699
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:23 pm
I think he did change on Brexit because he was forced to think for the first time about it. That isn't particularly complimentary of him.
I think he didn't change so much as be dragged to a compromise as a purely electoral position (which failed because it was a fudge, but was still better than outright support of leave). If by some miracle he had won, I suspect he'd have gone off, negotiated his "new deal" (which would have been more or less the same as the old deal), then during the alleged "remaining neutral" in a referendum he'd have managed to get in a load of "I'd give the EU 7.5/10" digs.

I'm basing that on the fact he didn't change a single other thing in 50-odd years since he was a leftie student, up to and including a total tone deafness to antisemitism if it allowed him or a chum to have a pop at Israel. He knew what he wanted, he thought it was what we should all want to, and he didn't really care if we weren't sufficiently on board enough to agree.
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By Oblomov
Posts
#614702
The anarcho-communist I correspond with on politics is still adamant that Corbyn wanted to speak truth to power about the EU (that it's a neoliberal trading cartel that didn't give a fuck about financially crippling the likes of Greece, Spain and Italy) but the bourgeois liberal Islington set told him he couldn't because they wanted a decent exchange rate for their skiing holidays and working class people are too thick to understand the workings of it anyway :roll:

(I'll mention now that I correspond less and less with this chap about politics).
 
By Tubby Isaacs
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#614706
crabcakes_windermere wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:40 pm
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:23 pm
I think he did change on Brexit because he was forced to think for the first time about it. That isn't particularly complimentary of him.
I think he didn't change so much as be dragged to a compromise as a purely electoral position (which failed because it was a fudge, but was still better than outright support of leave). If by some miracle he had won, I suspect he'd have gone off, negotiated his "new deal" (which would have been more or less the same as the old deal), then during the alleged "remaining neutral" in a referendum he'd have managed to get in a load of "I'd give the EU 7.5/10" digs.

I'm basing that on the fact he didn't change a single other thing in 50-odd years since he was a leftie student, up to and including a total tone deafness to antisemitism if it allowed him or a chum to have a pop at Israel. He knew what he wanted, he thought it was what we should all want to, and he didn't really care if we weren't sufficiently on board enough to agree.
There was an array of deals that could have been done- see Barnier's slide. But nobody was thinking "I want Brexit, but it has to be a Jez Brexit". He ought to have put of Johnson's deal and made him defend the No Deal trapdoor (which isn't popular) in the election campaign.

I'm not arguing that he was enthusiastic for Remain or anything. But he doesn't look like a Brexit true believer now either.
 
By Tubby Isaacs
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#614707
Oblomov wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:17 pm
The anarcho-communist I correspond with on politics is still adamant that Corbyn wanted to speak truth to power about the EU (that it's a neoliberal trading cartel that didn't give a fuck about financially crippling the likes of Greece, Spain and Italy) but the bourgeois liberal Islington set told him he couldn't because they wanted a decent exchange rate for their skiing holidays and working class people are too thick to understand the workings of it anyway :roll:

(I'll mention now that I correspond less and less with this chap about politics).
Greece could have had a more generous bail out, but is he suggesting the UK chuck in for the Greek bailout, or just tell other countries to pay more?
 
By crabcakes_windermere
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#614708
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:20 pm

There was an array of deals that could have been done- see Barnier's slide. But nobody was thinking "I want Brexit, but it has to be a Jez Brexit". He ought to have put of Johnson's deal and made him defend the No Deal trapdoor (which isn't popular) in the election campaign.

I'm not arguing that he was enthusiastic for Remain or anything. But he doesn't look like a Brexit true believer now either.
True, but most of Corbyn's red lines - limiting freedom of movement being the biggest - were the same as May's. I don't think he was ever a brexit true believer, but was a lexit true believer. The problem is, Lexit relied on some magic bullshit of everyone post-EU deciding to live in an unrefined socialist paradise of unions and workers, doing 'worthy' jobs rather than working in the service industries that now largely fund Britain, and going all in on allotments. The reality would have been indistiguishable from what we're getting anyway.

Or to put it another way he thought he could offer what amounted to the exact same shitshow, but because it was from him it would inherently be 'better' in some undefined way.
Last edited by crabcakes_windermere on Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By crabcakes_windermere
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#614710
The people who want radical change usually say everyone wants radical change because either (a) they want radical change and are so up their own arses they can't conceive of anyone wanting anything else (and anyone who does is either an idiot or an enemy), or (b) they kid themselves they want radical change when what they really want is to absolve themselves of all responsibility for not making any effort towards compromise. So when the Tories got in because Corbyn wouldn't work with the LDs or the SNP, it wasn't his fault - he had a vision and they would have made him give up parts of it. And so nothing good gets done instead of some good, but that's "better" because the vision stayed pure.
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By Tubby Isaacs
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#614711
crabcakes_windermere wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:31 pm


True, but most of Corbyn's red lines - limiting freedom of movement being the biggest - were the same as May's. I don't think he was ever a brexit true believer, but was a lexit true believer. The problem is, Lexit relied on some magic bullshit of everyone post-EU deciding to live in an unrefined socialist paradise of unions and workers, doing 'worthy' jobs rather than working in the service industries that now largely fund Britain, and going all in on allotments. The reality would have been indistiguishable from what we're getting anyway.

Or to put it another way he though he could offer what amounted to the exact same shitshow, but because it was from him it would inherently be 'better' in some undefined way.
I don't know if he could have got some sort of "Customs Union with a say" deal. I didn't think so at the time, but he and Starmer acted like there was a deal to be done. Not a concrete veto, for sure. But anyway, I dont see how a referendum between Remain and a Brexit most Brexiters wouldn't want could be credible.

I think he absolutely believed in Lexit before, when he was part of a rump nobody paid any attention to. But the vast majority of people who sustained him as leader weren't Lexiters. Would you go with Skinner and Lindsey German, or Clive Lewis and that Glasto crowd?
 
By Tubby Isaacs
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#614713
crabcakes_windermere wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:03 pm
The people who want radical change usually say everyone wants radical change because either (a) they want radical change and are so up their own arses they can't conceive of anyone wanting anything else (and anyone who does is either an idiot or an enemy), or (b) they kid themselves they want radical change when what they really want is to absolve themselves of all responsibility for not making any effort towards compromise. So when the Tories got in because Corbyn wouldn't work with the LDs or the SNP, it wasn't his fault - he had a vision and they would have made him give up parts of it. And so nothing good gets done instead of some good, but that's "better" because the vision stayed pure.
I think a lot on the Left do want power, and many of the younger ones are open to PR, in a way that few Labour politicians of left and right used to be. The problem comes with how they see the electorate- as basically an extension of the Labour membership. You can get people to moan about train fares or the gas bill, or whatever, but as often as not, that makes them moaners rather than socialists.
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By Oblomov
Posts
#614716
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:26 pm
Oblomov wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:17 pm
The anarcho-communist I correspond with on politics is still adamant that Corbyn wanted to speak truth to power about the EU (that it's a neoliberal trading cartel that didn't give a fuck about financially crippling the likes of Greece, Spain and Italy) but the bourgeois liberal Islington set told him he couldn't because they wanted a decent exchange rate for their skiing holidays and working class people are too thick to understand the workings of it anyway :roll:

(I'll mention now that I correspond less and less with this chap about politics).
Greece could have had a more generous bail out, but is he suggesting the UK chuck in for the Greek bailout, or just tell other countries to pay more?
Neither I think, he was just reciting that Tony Benn bit about neoliberalism creating debt slavery. And he holds Varoufakis' critiques in unquestionably high regard.
Schmee liked this
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