[crabcakes_windermere]

The right of the Labour party have spent three years screaming that Corbyn is unelectable and that "hard left" social democratic policy is untenable. Bit rich to then say "oh you should fight for what you believe in, polls be damned!

Yes, and he's lost 3 elections - the last 2 in spectacular fashion. Because what he believes in is completely wrong and at odds with what would do the most good for the people he claims he wants to help. I said fight for the right thing, not just for something utterly idiotic you believe in just because you believe in it.

And - in case you need reminding - you don't agree with him either. Oh yeah, and the polls all show remain ahead. Oh, and it's what the Labour membership want.

There's nothing to gain from coming out hard remain. Leave vote is going to galvanise pretty hard if Labour put up a clear enemy, right now it's fracturing between brexit party and tories. If you really think remain would win a 2nd ref, why not let it have one vs soft brexit?

Well (a) yeah, there is - you might get some voters back. Remember them? You need them to do absolutely anything, and currently labour are as appealing as a bag of dog turds. There's credible info a pact between Tories and Farage's mob to 'save brexit' is already forming, because all Farage really wants is to finally get into the HoC and really put his trotters up, so that 'fractured enemy' is rapidly coalescing into a malevolent cohesive force - but even if they weren't, are you saying it's now *bad* for Labour to oppose the Tories? Who do *you* think the enemy are? Tom Watson? The Lib Dems? Reality in general?!?

But (b) I'd absolutely be up for remain vs soft brexit. Absolutely any day. As long as they were the only 2 options so as not to split the vote between remain, leaving with less but still significant damage and the hardcore maniac vote that will go for no deal (for example). Setting up a vote where you split one side and leave the worst option a free run would be idiotic at the best of times - that could hand a 'win' to no deal on a percentage less than the original referendum. But no one is offering that anyway. Simplest, best, clearest cut, most winnable option is remain vs leave.

Honestly, it's like you'd rather have hard brexit and have Corbyn string out his disastrous approach to the bitter end than countenance change to stand against something you've already said you don't want. It's some serious contortionism.

[Winegums]

"But no one is offering that anyway. Simplest, best, clearest cut, most winnable option is remain vs leave."
Except it's literally what Corbyn has said countless times.

[crabcakes_windermere]

"But no one is offering that anyway. Simplest, best, clearest cut, most winnable option is remain vs leave."
Except it's literally what Corbyn has said countless times.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!! No, but really. That's fucking priceless. You still believe Corbyn (or 'Labour spokesman') would give the public any sort of vote at all if they had the opportunity to put through any form of brexit?

Bless.

[Winegums]

I'd love a confirmatory vote if it were offered.
Here it is being offered
No, not like that

[crabcakes_windermere]

I’d love a confirmatory vote that was an offer from someone credible, someone who hadn’t caveated, rowed back on, fudged or otherwise gerrymandered any mention of a people’s vote over the last few years. Someone who didn’t take support leant to his party as ‘not the tories’ as a direct endorsement. Someone who I believed would actually offer what was promised rather than attempt to rig it so that it was the mildly less shit option he wants or the really shit option he won’t stand against, because he’d rather have really shit than not have Brexit at all.

So in the meantime, no - not like that. Because an offer from Corbyn isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.

[Winegums]

We've had a consistent position. The only confusion comes from the right wingers like Watson trying to force the party into a position it's not taken.

Which party failed to turn up for a brexit vote again? Was it the Lib STOP BREXIT Dems?

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Could we rein back the childish insults? Watson is not a right-winger. He is true Labour. You are a left-wing extremist.

[crabcakes_windermere]

We've had a consistent position. The only confusion comes from the right wingers like Watson trying to force the party into a position it's not taken.

Which party failed to turn up for a brexit vote again? Was it the Lib STOP BREXIT Dems?

Even Corbyn’s allies have said the confusing, caveated Labour position is what put voters off. But sure - if you were right, and that message was clear as a bell, then it was just rejected for what it was. A sack of shit. Your call.

Also, there were apologies at the time from the LDs for missing that vote, which they had expected Labour to abstain on. Because (wait for it...) Labour are so inconsistent on Brexit it’s not always clear what they will oppose, what they will vote for and what they will simply not take part in.

But thanks for making my point really well - great example.

[crabcakes_windermere]

Also, says a lot that Mr Democracy himself has to be *forced* into a position that 80% and upwards of his membership want that will play incredibly well with the majority of the party’s voter base.

For the few, not the many eh?

[Boiler]

Could we rein back the childish insults? Watson is not a right-winger. He is true Labour. You are a left-wing extremist.

I'm beginning to think that our resident doctor is Fenton's pet BTL fuckwit - the one that's more left wing than everyone else.

[Winegums]

Could we rein back the childish insults? Watson is not a right-winger. He is true Labour. You are a left-wing extremist.

He's on the right of the party fam, and sits to the right of the membership.

[Andy McDandy]

Could we rein back the childish insults? Watson is not a right-winger. He is true Labour. You are a left-wing extremist.

I'm beginning to think that our resident doctor is Fenton's pet BTL fuckwit - the one that's more left wing than everyone else.

That one used to sign his posts as "Alan Clifford". He always reminded me of a guy on the bus into work, who'd sit on the back seat muttering under his breath that whatever was in Metro that morning would lead to the downfall of the capitalist system by noon that day. And occasionally swear at BAME people.

[Winegums]

Could we rein back the childish insults? Watson is not a right-winger. He is true Labour. You are a left-wing extremist.

I'm beginning to think that our resident doctor is Fenton's pet BTL fuckwit - the one that's more left wing than everyone else.

I'm not more left wing than everyone else, but possibly you could consider that this forum sits to the centre right of mainstream opinion on a number of issues.

[davidjay]

Only a total idiot would think that a group of predominantly Labour supporters is centre-right.

[Winegums]

Depends on how you view the political spectrum though, doesn't it. Plenty of new labour policy sat around there, and one could argue that whole project was centrist at best.

It may shock you to hear that the USA has two right wing parties. You can support "the left party" and still be on the right overall.