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Re: What next for Labour?

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 12:08 am
by Malcolm Armsteen
And I've nicked that, Andy - hope you don't mind.

Re: What next for Labour?

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 12:22 am
by Andy McDandy
Me Casa su Casa. By all means. Five years of relentless attack starts here.

Re: What next for Labour?

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 12:31 am
by Malcolm Armsteen
Oh I do hope so.

Re: What next for Labour?

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 5:01 am
by youngian
Malcolm Armsteen wrote:And I've nicked that, Andy - hope you don't mind.


Me too and Andy's nicking of the classic knife-gun pulling line from Shir Shean has just reminded me that this applies to the SNP as well. Cameron and Sturgeon are already cutting deals in a not very progressive alliance. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-32746049" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The only leverage the Nats have is to remind the Tories that its in their interest to keep them sweet in time for the next Holyrood election (and less face it the Tories are warming to break up as they move to an isolationist little England agenda).

Labour leadership contenders are busy apologising for yesterday's Tory agenda on the deficit but should be aware the Tories have also put a symbiotic nationalism on the popular agenda south of the border. A Labour leader needs to tell people on this island that we're better than that and ask what good will come out of this new landscape of identity politics (Tim Farron is the only one so far challenging this agenda).

Like many on the English left I've been guilty of turning on a sixpence with the Nats and sometimes being seduced by Sturgeon and Salmond's progressive alliance mood music. Yes work with them in Westminster to vote down the Tories but never stop reminding the Scots what a bunch of duplicitous pricks they really are. Or our shy Union Jack waving English Tories who is cutting deals with the Nats. And its not Red Ed.

Re: What next for Labour?

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 2:22 pm
by The Red Arrow
BBC reporting Murphy's resigning in a month after failing to get backing in a confidence vote.

Re: What next for Labour?

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 6:35 pm
by Winegums
Andy McDandy wrote:More than anything, attack.

.
Great post. There are so many great lines of attack too. Labour are sheepish at the minute, and have been sheepish for five years. There was a lot of blushing when trade unions get mentioned. Why? Millions of people in this country put aside a small amount of their pay every week to pay into organisations which give them a fighting chance at a fair day's wage, against multinationals with deep pockets.

We shouldn't be sheepish, we should be incredibly proud of that relationship and shout it from the rooftops. The minute the Tories bring it up we shouldn't be looking at our feet we should be saying "Yeah? So what?" and asking the Tories why they won't even let the public know who finances them.


Part of the success of UKIP, SNP, Green has been the homogenizing of lib/lab/con as 'Westminster'. We need to put a big red sea between ourselves and the Tories.

Re: What next for Labour?

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 6:51 pm
by Bones McCoy
I still feel far removed form the Psyche of the average voter.

What I do hope is that everybody involved in the Leadership debate - Candidates, supporters, voters casts their mind back to the moment they threw in with Labour.
Try to recapture your motivations, when you knew this was the right thing to do, and recall your objectives.

Recapture that feeling and drive out cynicism and doubt.
Then consider which candidate can rebuild a party that can win, and a party you'd want to win.

Re: What next for Labour?

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 8:02 pm
by youngian
Bones McCoy wrote:I still feel far removed form the Psyche of the average voter.
Maybe in the sense of policies that people don't think too deeply about policies that effect your country and fellow citizens but lets say a choice of leader was:

a) JFK or Barack Obama on a set of policies that you agree with
or
b) Iain Duncan-Smith on a set of policies he devised

Wouldn't you then be in tune with the masses?

Frontman politics is about emotion.

Re: What next for Labour?

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 8:45 pm
by davidjay
Winegums wrote:
Andy McDandy wrote:More than anything, attack.

.
Great post. There are so many great lines of attack too. Labour are sheepish at the minute, and have been sheepish for five years. There was a lot of blushing when trade unions get mentioned. Why? Millions of people in this country put aside a small amount of their pay every week to pay into organisations which give them a fighting chance at a fair day's wage, against multinationals with deep pockets.

We shouldn't be sheepish, we should be incredibly proud of that relationship and shout it from the rooftops. The minute the Tories bring it up we shouldn't be looking at our feet we should be saying "Yeah? So what?" and asking the Tories why they won't even let the public know who finances them.


Part of the success of UKIP, SNP, Green has been the homogenizing of lib/lab/con as 'Westminster'. We need to put a big red sea between ourselves and the Tories.
Absolutely.

Re: What next for Labour?

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 10:56 pm
by Andy McDandy
Part of the 'Westminster' myth has been the depiction of politicians (at the national level) of being out of touch. That needs to change. It means connection with communities, the realisation that MPs are there to fight your corner.

That's the top-down bit. The other thing we need to do is emphasise how to get involved in politics. Community forums. Free to attend, go along. Even bloody neighbourhood watch meetings - your chance to set police priorities in your neighbourhood.

They're regular and free to attend. It's that or Eastenders. Politics is not some elite and special club. It's happening here and now. OK, the details may be hidden in the furthest corner of your local paper. OK, the meetings might be a bit dull, but there is no barrier to getting involved. And councillors and MPs do attend. It's a great chance to get a few minutes with them and make your feelings known. And that meeting will have a million times more effect than some article they read on the Internet.

Re: What next for Labour?

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 8:43 am
by youngian
The irony is a politician or councillor is in touch with far more diverse realities through their constituency work than you, me or Bob down the pub who knows all about real life.

The problem is that far too many have just been professional hacks that speak and feel differently to them. And blagging it by watching the Malcolm Tucker weekly zeitgeist tape won't cut it.

Re: What next for Labour?

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 9:11 am
by Andy McDandy
I've met MPs who have said 'My time is precious - make your point or get my attention in 1 minute or I'm moving on'. Articulation and advocacy - cutting to the heart of the issue, understanding what powers someone has, how political systems work - aren't commonly taught. They should be.

Re: What next for Labour?

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 10:41 am
by Malcolm Armsteen
There's also a class/education thing with C1/C2/D voters I have found. It may be Dunning-Kruger but they simply speak a different language (see Bernstein, Restricted and Elaborated Codes) from the people who represent them. Instead of this being recognised and some attempt made to bridge the gap the voters simply dismiss them as 'out of touch' when in fact they are being articulate and cogent. Just not in a language that the voters recognise.

Re: What next for Labour?

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 3:38 pm
by Andy McDandy
Articulation means different things to different people. I came from a pretty average background but, thanks to various factors, had a wider frame of reference than many of my schoolmates. When I said I was going to see my grandparents, it meant a couple of days. For others, half an hour.

My parents were interested in stuff. They encouraged me and my brother to read widely. We had a sense of the wider world, compared to our mates whose worlds stopped at the end of the estate (save for those mythical countries, Spain and the USA (Spain where you went on holiday, USA where all the cool stuff came from)).

You ever heard one of those conversations, "So I turned around and I was like...then he turned around and he was like...doing me head in...so, like, woss garn on?"? I blame Eastenders.

Re: What next for Labour?

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 4:17 pm
by Malcolm Armsteen
Andy McDandy wrote:Articulation means different things to different people. I came from a pretty average background but, thanks to various factors, had a wider frame of reference than many of my schoolmates. When I said I was going to see my grandparents, it meant a couple of days. For others, half an hour.
That's the difference between restricted and elaborated code.