Topics about the Labour Party
:sunglasses: 62.6 % ❤ 1.3 % :thumbsup: 5.2 % 😯 1 % :grinning: 21 % 🧥 1.3 % 🙏 2 % 😟 1.6 % :cry: 2.6 % :shit: 1.3 %
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By visage
Membership Days Posts
#577528
A reminder of people who support Corbyn:

Nick Griffin
Nigel Farage
David Duke
The Daily Stormer

Now, I'm sure he didnt solicit their support, and he cant tell them not to. But why on earth is a supposedly left wing Labour leader attractive to such people?
lord_kobel, oboogie liked this
 
By Winegums
Membership Days Posts
#577534
crabcakes_windermere wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:46 pm
Winegums wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:17 pm
Polls are still something like 52-48 remain, with the added weight of the incredulity of the public in being asked to re-answer this question. Info about corruption etc public knowledge.

I'm fairly sure remain would lose. The centrists you're looking to lead this movement don't have an answer for the problems in this country. The reason MAGA was such a good slogan is that everyone in the US knew that the public were unhappy. Challenging MAGA meant suggesting that things were fine actually, what are you complaining about? The answer to that, and defeating populist right-wing movements across the western world, involves challenging the failures of neoliberalism and capitalism, which liberals are unwilling to do.

So no, you'd lose again, harder.
Then you may as well pack in and go home, because Corbyn's Labour would lose even bigger in such a scenario. He has no answers to the problems in this country other than 'wind back the clock' (and will not have the money to do so anyway). So far his challenging right-wing movements involves backing their immigration policies and parroting anti-immigration soundbites, ignoring their corrupt campaigns, and trying to help get their key policy over the line (or promising his own, equally devastating version of it as a preferred alternative). How exactly is pushing for a reduction in worker's rights, equality rights, pay and conditions, living standards, food hygiene standards, scrapping aims to promote social mobility and withdrawing from things like the EHCR an answer to the aims of populist right-wing movements? To me, it seems everything he does of late is more like an endorsement. Or at the very least an admission any cost is worth paying as long as brexit happens, up to and including throwing everyone under a bus.

Corbyn's sole realistic route to being PM is getting behind remain. If he pushes through Brexit, he's finished. If he lets the Tories push through brexit then has to stand on the basis of him (the hugely unpopular, antisemite-enabling nepotism fan who took all the pro-EU tactical votes that kept his head above water in the last GE for granted, and has ignored the message of the local and EU elections since) vs someone with charisma, he's finished. There's no reason to vote Labour if he can't do the good bits of his manifesto, and plenty of reasons not to because of all the other things he's been fucking terrible at. There's no appeal to leave voters, who will still vote Tory or Brexit party. There's zero appeal to remainers, who he has actively ignored. I really can't stress this enough - no one will vote for him. No one. Through his tepid effort in the initial campaign followed by his fence-sitting, mixed messages and the constant undermining by 'Labour spokesman' of every other statement, he's engineered a scenario where nobody trusts him and Labour appeal to no one. Increasingly not even their own membership.

Honestly, what do you think he's going to do to appeal to people? I've seen no Corbyn fan answer this aside from in terms of 'people liked our manifesto' assuming it's still 2016 and the last 2 years haven't happened. If there was a GE tomorrow, what on earth makes you think he'd win it on a promise to deliver something his own side don't want and something the other side do want but don't want HIM to deliver?

Feel free to carry on your whining against people who are actually trying to stop the biggest right-wing project in this country probably ever, but it's your own feet you're shooting at.
He has no answers to the problems in this country other than 'wind back the clock' (and will not have the money to do so anyway).

Addressing wealth inequality, poverty, cost of living etc are exactly how you deal with the issues facing this country and they're exactly the problems that have gotten us to where we are. Even if it's wrong it is at least a fucking viewpoint. The gall of centrists complaining about clock winding when all the collective wit of the FBPEs can come up with is "let's go back to around 2012 when the london Olympics happened and everything was rosy"

You have no idea how to deal with the issues that caused the referendum, because you fundamentally refuse to believe they exist. People only voted wrong because of foreign funding and lies. So we just make people know they voted wrong and then they'll vote right.

Say Corbyn comes out as hard remain, then the Tories push through brexit before a GE, how does Corbyn win control given he's said quite clearly he doesn't want to brexit? How does any remain party get control when they've said they don't want to do it?
 
By crabcakes_windermere
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#577551
Winegums wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:11 pm
Addressing wealth inequality, poverty, cost of living etc are exactly how you deal with the issues facing this country and they're exactly the problems that have gotten us to where we are. Even if it's wrong it is at least a fucking viewpoint. The gall of centrists complaining about clock winding when all the collective wit of the FBPEs can come up with is "let's go back to around 2012 when the london Olympics happened and everything was rosy"
These are just vague if worthy ideals (but notably in no way exclusive to Corbyn or his fans), not actual solutions. Please explain:
1. what he would do to address the issues listed
2. how these measures would be realistically funded in a post-brexit severely reduced (likely in recession) economy - particularly relevant given Corbyn's plans for renationalisations
3. why any of these are not possible within the EU, given a starting point of a stable economy and trading network would clearly be a huge boon to domestic reform
You have no idea how to deal with the issues that caused the referendum, because you fundamentally refuse to believe they exist. People only voted wrong because of foreign funding and lies. So we just make people know they voted wrong and then they'll vote right.
The first sentence is completely untrue - I and others have a great deal of idea why the referendum came about and it's again sheer bloody arrogance on the part of lexiters to think they've got a monopoly on 'the real truth', as if we're all sitting around like Jonathan fucking Pie caricatures going "oh why did the poor people vote so stupidly?". Decades of lies from right-wing press and governments (left and right) using Europe as a convenient bogeyman while giving zero coverage of the positives. Increasing inequality and poverty, reduced services etc. It's all well known.

However the second sentence I have issues with. People DID only vote based on lies in many cases - believing the NHS would be safe on leaving rather than the biggest target to be carved up being the most obvious. Exposing the corruption and making the case that the inequalities in services stem largely from domestic government choices (and largely Tory ones) on the one hand, and on the other doing work to show where the EU has stepped in and filled the gaps the Tories have created on the other, would be an excellent answer to this.

So:
1. Given he has no time for the Tories and wants to address inequality, why did Corbyn not do this, instead focusing on dry trade laws or lukewarm praise during the remain campaign?
2. Why is he so quiet on the corruption now? Surely NOT pointing out how flawed the campaign was and how the Leave vote was won by underhand means is simply handing the Tories a free pass for no reason?
3. If fighting inequality is a key goal, why is Corbyn pursuing a course of action that will increase and prolong it dramatically rather than fighting tooth and nail to convince the public that we should stay?
Say Corbyn comes out as hard remain, then the Tories push through brexit before a GE, how does Corbyn win control given he's said quite clearly he doesn't want to brexit? How does any remain party get control when they've said they don't want to do it?
It's a moot point because Corbyn will not win control under any scenario where he supports brexit.

1. If it's an early post-brexit GE, he's not going to get control by saying he does want brexit now because the people who want brexit and who voted leave don't want him to be in charge now or then or ever. Being out of the EU is phase 1. Phase 2 is the dismantling of what they call red tape but what we call rights and protections. That needs a Tory (or a Tory-like) govt.

Leavers don't want HIS brexit and never will, but by continuing to promise he will deliver it to people who are utterly disinterested in his offer he pushes more and more people who would vote Labour away. If there is brexit and then a GE and Corbyn has stuck to his guns and said all along he would deliver brexit as well, the support Labour has lost is not coming back because the majority of it wasn't Leave support who will then go "Oh well, that's done now - now I'm interested in righting society's wrongs again". Remain or even soft brexit support is not going to return to Labour while Corbyn actively pretends they don't exist. They'll do exactly what you have been telling them to do and fuck off to the Lib Dems or the Greens.

2. If it's a late post-brexit GE, when things have gone tits up, he won't win a vote on the grounds he supported brexit and it's completely fucked everything. Plus leavers will still be pushing on with phase 2 so won't suddenly swap party. A remain party here could easily capitalise on the justified anger of those voters who still believed that brexit would be for the best. Someone who supported it as leader would be a dead weight to any such party.

3. If it's a pre-brexit GE, he won't win that if he stays committed to brexit because leavers will want a right-wing brexit run by a right-wing party and remainers will still be trying to stop it from happening.

Labour is not entitled to the non-Tory vote, but seems to have completely forgotten this. Again, his ONE plausible route to No. 10 is to support remain, campaign hard for the reasons why this is the best route to address the inequalities and issues in our country, and be willing to compromise and work with other parties.

He is dead in the water every other way by not being brexity enough for one side, far too brexity for the other, and hamstrung by having no plausible way to make good on any other policies other than to rack up vast amounts of borrowing*.

*OR, do something properly batshit like enforced renationalisation at no reimbursement, mass compulsory reposession of rental homes for reuse as social housing, vastly expanded taxation, defaulting on NHS contracts and so on.
randomelement, lord_kobel, oboogie and 1 others liked this
 
By Arrowhead
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#577579
It's not a very encouraging sign for Corbyn when his own loyalists start having a pop at him, as seems to have happened at the PLP meeting tonight. Apparently another Corbyn supporter, Lloyd Russell-Moyle, also chipped in with similar comments re senior advisers not being above criticism given recent results.

 
By Tubby Isaacs
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#577589
Arrowhead wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:29 pm
It's not a very encouraging sign for Corbyn when his own loyalists start having a pop at him, as seems to have happened at the PLP meeting tonight. Apparently another Corbyn supporter, Lloyd Russell-Moyle, also chipped in with similar comments re senior advisers not being above criticism given recent results.

Alas Marie Rimmer hasn't had time to hit Twitter and nail this fake news.
 
By Malcolm Armsteen
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#577601
Also

https://www.ft.com/content/82561c84-8bb ... 2f641eca37



The weekly meeting of Labour MPs descended into open warfare on Monday night as many attacked the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, criticising the party’s poor showing at last month’s European elections and its failure to stamp out anti-Semitism.
 
By bluebellnutter
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#577614
Winegums, genuine question for you, are you actually capable of outlining a positive vision which doesn't attack others? I've been back through your posts and it seems every time you try and come up with a thing about how great Jeremy is it's aligned with another bit about how Centrists / Blairites / FBPEs / Change UK / the Lib Dems are bad / wrong / shit / evil.
Timbo, Oblomov liked this
 
By davidjay
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#577621
bluebellnutter wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:11 am
Winegums, genuine question for you, are you actually capable of outlining a positive vision which doesn't attack others? I've been back through your posts and it seems every time you try and come up with a thing about how great Jeremy is it's aligned with another bit about how Centrists / Blairites / FBPEs / Change UK / the Lib Dems are bad / wrong / shit / evil.
But never fascists. Strange, that.
bluebellnutter, Oblomov liked this
 
By crabcakes_windermere
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#577622
Winegums wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:37 pm
customs union.
This is your best answer, is it? For a service-based economy where movement of skilled people and capital is more important than being able to export goods, Corbyn will bankroll his societal changes by stopping what we need with regards to freedom of movement and giving us a crapper version of what we already have for goods?

This is what I mean by backwards - Corbyn's brexit plan would perhaps be workable for 1950s, manufacturing-based Britain, but is woefully dated for 2020s Britain. Is he expecting us to all troop back into factories and farming? (Which will of course do wonders for the environment.)

It's yesterday's plan from yesterday's man. And I'm sure not at all driven by looking at the UK as a financial centre and thinking something as deep and considered as "Bankers bad. Ugh.".
Timbo, lord_kobel, Oblomov liked this
 
By crabcakes_windermere
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#577624
Also, it's fucking laughable that after all the smug, self-righteous "centrists have no plan, no vision and no clue why brexit happened" high horse bullshit, that this is all that was put forward. A vague, caveated, non-committal placeholder of a soluton parroted straight off of Corbyn - saying "a customs union" is about as informative as telling someone where you are by saying "I'm near a tree". Or that you want a "jobs-first brexit". What sort of union is it? What will it cover? Who will be in it? How will it affect our trade? Is it the same one as this, which would require the EU to suddenly give up on some of its red lines? https://www.ft.com/content/d7673a26-1af ... db76e69936

You don't have any plan or vision. You don't even know what you think you're being promised, let alone are you able to explain why it will benefit anyone. Probably because Corbyn doesn't know himself, because this is yet another fence-sitting exercise - offering something that looks remain-y to try and keep people on board, but is so loosely defined as to be meaningless and full of ideas that would be rejected even if they were up for renegotiation. Which they aren't.

Believing in things that have already been rejected coming to pass to allow other things to happen is not vision. It's delusion.
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