[Kreuzberger]

...mind-bending (prescribed) drugs...

Sounds like a fine plan

[The Weeping Angel]

I think PU's "handbags" line was regarding the "part time Comrades" quip in the OP... but I will say reading posts on here over the last few days has really put me off joining the Labour party. Seems to be less a circle jerk as a massive bitch-slapping contest, one observed by a laughing and pointing Tories. Corbyn, if he's got any leadership chops, needs to step in and tell all you kids to calm the fuck down and start slinging it at the real enemy. Here's hoping.

Your not being fair D.C. These last few months have been tough for people in the Labour Party. So people are bound to get tetchy.

[D.C. Harrison]

You're not being fair D.C. These last few months have been tough for people in the Labour Party, so people are bound to get tetchy.

It's going to be a tough few years/decades for a lot more people unless the bitching stops and the Labour party gets to work.

Sounds like a fine plan

Isn't the NHS great?

[Daley Mayle]

Agnes has made a very good point, the achievements NL made are now taken for granted... and why shouldn't they be? I remember my daughter bitching about how ungrateful her children are for all the things she does for them and I pointed out that this was her job, to look after the kids and give them the best possible start in life. The children will only appreciate her efforts when they have kids of their own.

Why should the taxpayer/voter be grateful or even acknowledge what a government does with their tax money? That is the government's job and they get paid handsomely for doing it. If services improve then that is how it should be.

IMO history will be very positive about Brown's handling of the economy generally and the way he dealt with the banking collapse both here and worldwide. Unfortunately for Blair he will always be associated with the Iraq war and the subsequent turmoil in the Middle East.

[Andy McDandy]

All good and worthy achievements. I remember life under Major and Thatcher, where the closest you got to a government intervention was at about sticking plaster level (Blue Peter appeal to buy dialysis machines for the NHS? Cones Hotline and Citizen's Charter?). However...

First, there's the 'what do you expect, a medal?' reaction on certain topics. The provision of many things on that list was a huge improvement on what went before, but was seen by many as not a great gain, but to be expected. Or, in the case of things such as free museum entry, 'not for the likes of us' and an irrelevance.

Second, as we've seen all too often, we've a population who are happy to believe the narrative fed to them even when contradictory evidence is right in front of them. Where any attempt to redress the balance is countered with "Oh, don't believe them. They're the government - you know, politicians. All liars". So even if your local school or hospital is doing fine, you're told that the system is falling apart and you believe it.

Third, as much as the Labour government had a firm grip on things, it was helped by a frankly useless opposition and a generally buoyant economy. Sure, people griped and grumbled about things, but as long as there was cheap credit and everything seemed on the up and up, they remained just grumbles. The real explosion of hatred, intolerance and 'strivers vs skivers' came with the crash. Which also dovetailed with the emergence of a young and energetic opposition, contrasted with a decidedly long in the tooth Labour administration. While Blair had been facing Hague, IDS, Howard etc, he a) could link them back in the public mind to the Major years, and b) knew that as long as the going was generally good, people wouldn't want anything to particularly change.

Fourth, Iraq. Sorry, but it is an issue. It was the dumbest, most ill thought out piece of foreign policy guff since Suez. And that isn't the hindsight talking because it was said at the time. It was badly planned, had no rationale beyond resource grab (sure, Saddam was a dictator and a baddie, but I don't see us lining up to invade Belarus or Burma any time soon). It was about the oil. Not a thought was given to reconstruction, and we didn't even bother to count the dead (unless they were on our side). It damaged out international standing, fuelled racial tension and threat levels at home, and before anyone says that there was no alternative, yes there was. Do nothing. You know, there's a reason the SOE/OSS shelved all their 'Let's kill Hitler' plans in about 1943? Think about it.

Fifth, the authoritarianism. Not just nationally but internally within the party. And it got worse over time.

These things have to be acknowledged and confronted. Especially on the seeming inability to break the media narrative, because that is what I consider to be the biggest barrier.

[Daley Mayle]

Yesterday was the anniversary of the report in 2013 that put the cost of the abandoned NHS national computer scheme at £10bn. It was an NL vanity project they just couldn't admit was not going to work and kept throwing money at it. Lest we forget, there was many a million spent on a national ID card scheme that was sold on the premise it would help fight terrorism here in the UK.

[Andy McDandy]

Big Conversation. Quietly shelved when it became clear people didn't want to talk about what Tony wanted them to talk about.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Indeed. But I'll see your big conversation and raise you NHS waiting lists.

My point - nothing to do with handbags - is that the part-time comrades are decrying the 97-10 government and the major achievements it made. But then, sneering is easier than working. That there were big problems I wouldn't deny, the greatest of which was Blair's growing religious mania and retreat from reason.