Topics about the Labour Party
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#583210
When people invoke the ghost of Churchill they never mention his disastrous misjudgement of the 1945 election campaign.
#583266
I can just imagine an issues-driven Labour campaign. "If the wind's in the right direction we're going to have a People's Vote, and if the tide's favourable we'll have Remain on the ballot paper and if the stars align we'll campaign for it."

The Tories will stick up a picture of Grandpa with the caption "Do you really want him in charge? He nearly managed it last time."
#583267
davidjay wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:12 pm
I can just imagine an issues-driven Labour campaign. "If the wind's in the right direction we're going to have a People's Vote, and if the tide's favourable we'll have Remain on the ballot paper and if the stars align we'll campaign for it."

The Tories will stick up a picture of Grandpa with the caption "Do you really want him in charge? He nearly managed it last time."
This is *exactly* why the Lib Dems and others have to say 'no coalition with Corbyn's Labour' (the caveat being *corbyn's* labour). As well as avoiding a vote drain because of Labour's continued unpopular ambiguity, if post GE there is a situation where they can be kingmakers, they have to be able to turn round and say people voted for them fully aware of that clause - so ANY coalition has the requirement it be with a new leader who can be worked with.
#583274
This a a quite astonishing, and rather frightening, academic study by the Community Safety Trust, of the specific phenomenon of how online social media drive anti-semitism throughout the party at multiple levels.

It makes me ashamed to be a member of the same party. Having read it, my inclination is to follow Malcolm & Crabbers. Appalling.

https://cst.org.uk/public/data/file/f/e ... 0WEB.pdf
oboogie liked this
#583275
Sunday, 4 August 2019
CST Goes Through The Looking Glass
https://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2019/0 ... glass.html

Monday, 5 August 2019
Anti-Semitism - A Warning From History
https://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2019/0 ... story.html
#583277
Thanks, 'arra,

I'm so torn on this, I really am.

I didn't want to believe that AS was a Thing in the broad left but there can be no doubt that it is part of the mud-sling that is within the armoury of those who we would usually see as being on "our side".

A part of me still believes that this is grounded in the politics of the simpleton. They say daft shit on Twitter. It becomes amplified. We become mired in it. That is fair game and fair enough.

Meanwhile, holding to account the tories' solemn pledges to get to the bottom of Islamophobia is denigrated as Whataboutery or not even worth a mention, while people are punching the air that journos on independent media - without name or form with which to call them to account - are losing their jobs.

Meanwhile, the coup trundles on.

How many times in the last three years have we invoked the ghost of Niemöller? All that pearl-clutching is coming to an end, whether we like it or not. It is time to pick a side. Lefties, remoaners, vermin, queer taig midgets?

The side I chose might not be perfect but it is infinitely preferable to the alternative that is close to stifling all dissent within a few short months.
#583280
Kreuz

1. I wouldn't believe a word Fenton says on this he has drunk deep from the Kool-aid

2. It isn't just dumb shit people are saying on twitter, this is about a party that has become institionally anti-semitic

3. Citing Islamophobia in the Tories is whataboutery because it is cited to muddy the waters to distract away from what's happening in Labour.

4. The Canary got what it dserved, it's a left-wing version of Breitbart.

5. People like me are angry over this and want Corbyn removed becasue he has done fuck all to prevent it, worse he has helped enable it and denied it, To the point where the Party is now investigation by the EHRC. That angers me and fills me with shame, that the Party that I am a member of and was proud to support is now seen as racist. I joined a party that was non-racist that embraced people of all nationlaities and all faiths. Now I feel that I'm in a cult, where we throw our principles for a man who isn't worthy to be leader, a man whose utterly failed to rise up to the challenge of leading the party.

6. A few years ago I warned that if Labour didn't deal with this then it would come back to haunt them. Well sadly I was right.
Abernathy liked this
#583281
An ample demonstration that the polarization and inevitable intolerance of an opposing point of view thus created is now so firmly entrenched that reasoned debate is all too often impossible. Those raising a head above the parapet with a "Hang on a minute..." howled down. Not too healthy. We can try and make things better or we can try and make things worse.

I'll leave you with a more detailed article from Mike Sivier.

Guardian/CST anti-Semitism smear job prompts backlash movement: #EngineOfHope
https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2019/08/ ... ineofhope/
#583282
Unlike others I am actually reading the report, the twitter accounts mentioned are mostly fimilar to me, these scum and humna detritus for that is what they're are bullies who hide beneath a veneer of socialism to justify their bigotry.
#583284
The Weeping Angel wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:12 pm
Unlike others I am actually reading the report, the twitter accounts mentioned are mostly fimilar to me, these scum and humna detritus for that is what they're are bullies who hide beneath a veneer of socialism to justify their bigotry.
Preserved for posterity.
#583291
I think it's all fairly simple. Corbyn isn't an antisemite in of himself, but clearly has a blind spot as to what he considers antisemitic and to how important an issue he thinks this is (as shown by the sighs and eye-rolling when asked about it on TV - he really thinks the whole 'lifelong campaigner against bigotry' schtick should mean he is above question).

This slackness, made worse by interference and let-offs from LOTO, has emboldened the sort of people who do make dreadful tweets who genuinely think a cabal of Jewish bankers run the world, and those too lazy/stupid to separate Jews/Israel, Jews/capitalism and too self important, arrogant and convinced of their own righteousness to look at things they write and say before they write and say them. They don't think there's a problem with really, REALLY pushing the line on what I'll politely call 'pro-Palestine' and 'anti-capitalist' viewpoints, because nothing Corbyn does points to that. That makes Jewish groups extremely nervous, because quite apart from Jewish members getting abuse now at the low level, if he were PM it's not clear what else he could turn a blind eye to.

Add that into the conspiracy theory mindset that surrounds Corbyn, a largely hostile media, people in the party who (rightly) want him gone for plenty of other reasons who have no reason whatsoever to defend him - many of whom he has let down through a lack of support on other issues, and the fact that he is still a mediocre backbencher and not a strong leader, and you have the perfect media storm. A genuine issue that has its roots with, and is made worse by, his blindspots and lukewarm efforts, amplified by those who genuinely don't like him and those who once might have been more defensive but now see no reason to do so. Corbyn's side will write it all off as conspiracy when that is dismissive and falling far short. Those against Corbyn will pick up on any story no matter how weak, making those that believe it is all conspiracy all the more sure they are correct.

It does ultimately all come back to him though. The appointments to complaints panels smack of nepotism. The interference smacks of corruption. The weak Chakrabarti report and her subsequent elevation smack of a payoff. His attitude in interviews. The farce about adoption of the definition. Arranging to release statements on the Jewish sabbath. Only meeting 'friendly' Jews who have huge question marks over their suitability as an ally. All his behaviour points to someone who doesn't really give two shits about this because he's never had to think further before than Palestine = good.

He has handled it poorly from the start, and allowed it to become what it is. It's not because Corbyn is a left-winger that there's some nefarious scheme to get shot of him using antisemitism as a cover. It's because he is a tin-eared, poorly advised, not particularly bright, weak leader that has meant some level of antisemitism (be it through ignorance or genuine malice) has crept in, gifting an easily amplified attack route to those who wish to see him gone or need a distraction from their own failings, and he has neither the skills nor the wherewithal to sort it out.

Red arrow is right that this is a polarising issue. But it's also not a black and white one either, and I fear that's why it will remain polarising - Corbyn's supporters would have to accept the issues that led to this to deal with this, and I don't think that's something they're capable of. And while they push back that it's *all* lies, there will naturally be escalation the other way that it is not - because a great deal of it at ground level clearly isn't.
lord_kobel, Timbo, Oblomov liked this
#583295
And just as an aside, here's a passage from the CST report...
Even worse, the notion that Jews would lie about antisemitism in order to prevent the election of a prime minister who would care for ‘the many’ against ‘the few’ echoes antisemitic conspiracy theories that accuse Jews of dishonesty and manipulation in pursuit of goals that are opposed to the interests of the nation as a whole. It assumes bad faith, cunning and secret coordination: standard features of antisemitic conspiracy theories down the ages.
The allegation that Jews invent false accusations of antisemitism to prevent people from criticising Israel was named The Livingstone Formulation by the academic Dr. David Hirsh, after Ken Livingstone had written in 2006 that “for far too long the accusation of anti-Semitism has been used against anyone who is critical of the policies of the Israeli government, as I have been.” According to Hirsh, writing about the ‘smear’ allegation in 2018:
“The standard response to Jews is not that they have misjudged the situation, perhaps for understandable reasons related to their history... The standard response to Jews is that they know that their claims of having experienced antisemitism are false, and they persist in making them anyway for selfish tribal reasons. It is a nasty little trick to silence the voice of the Palestinians and to smear their great supporter Jeremy Corbyn...Moreover this is the charge made against the community as a whole, not only against particular individuals... Make no mistake, the charge against the Jewish community is that it is involved in a conspiracy against the left. Any individual could get it wrong. But when a whole community gets it wrong together, in an organised and co-ordinated way, and in bad faith, then the allegation is one of Jewish conspiracy to lie and to smear.”

The suggestion that Jews would invent allegations of antisemitism in order to prevent a socialist government also reinforces racist stereotypes that Jewish people are rich, greedy and selfish.
And here's the top comment from one of Fenton's articles:
Anonymous said...
And still the questions go unanswered: WHY are some elements of our Jewish community attacking Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party when publicly available evidence shows the ad hominem allegations are patently false? WHO are the accusers fellow-travellers? WHO is orchestrating this anti-democratic evil?

We expect the lies from corporate media. They are after all owned and staffed by far right cowards. We expect too the same from a New Labour rump incapable of mea culpa for the rottenness of the Blair-Brown betrayal years. But if there is one element of our society who should realise they are playing with dangerous fire it is surely the Jews - who suffered such awful tragedy from precisely these methods.
If only those pesky, lying Jews that the author has just directly aligned with far right cowards would shut up, eh? They're just asking for it...
Abernathy, lord_kobel, Timbo and 1 others liked this
#583313
Kreuzberger wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:47 pm
journos on independent media - without name or form with which to call them to account - are losing their jobs.
I've now got this quote by Tom Lehrer stuck in my head:
I really should say that - I do not direct these remarks against the vast army of folk song lovers, but merely against that peculiar hard core who seem to equate authenticity with artistic merit and illiteracy with charm.
#583314
Kreuzberger : Normally you write with considerable clarity, but I've found myself scratching my bonce after reading your latest brain-dump.
Kreuzberger wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:47 pm
I'm so torn on this, I really am.

I didn't want to believe that AS was a Thing in the broad left but there can be no doubt that it is part of the mud-sling that is within the armoury of those who we would usually see as being on "our side".


Who do you mean by that? Why do you characterise (what? anti-semitism? "smears"? party process?) it as "mud-sling ? I need you to clarify.
A part of me still believes that this is grounded in the politics of the simpleton. They say daft shit on Twitter. It becomes amplified. We become mired in it.


Probably correct, at least in part. But it certainly does not seem all to be characterisable in that way. The CRT report, if you read the whole thing, makes that very clear.
Meanwhile, holding to account the tories' solemn pledges to get to the bottom of Islamophobia is denigrated as Whataboutery or not even worth a mention
,

Who does this ?
while people are punching the air that journos on independent media - without name or form with which to call them to account - are losing their jobs.
Again, who are you talking about ? Who's punching the air? Who are losing their jobs ?
Meanwhile, the coup trundles on.
What coup?
How many times in the last three years have we invoked the ghost of Niemöller? All that pearl-clutching is coming to an end, whether we like it or not. It is time to pick a side. Lefties, remoaners, vermin, queer taig midgets?


Again, I think I know what or who you might be referring to, but I'm really not sure.
The side I chose might not be perfect but it is infinitely preferable to the alternative that is close to stifling all dissent within a few short months.
And again, who are you referring to? The Johnson administration ? What side have you chosen?

I've rarely known quite so gnomic a posting. I'm not getting at you (heaven forfend) but any chance of clearing up all these mysteries ?
#583322
If 'journos losing their jobs' means 'The Canary has been rumbled and is cutting back on posting any old made up crap from anyone on a freelance basis' (because despite it's socialist leanings it was a gig economy outfit, now changed to a smaller body of in-house hacks who'll keep the dwindling income), then fucking bring it - it peddles horse shit, and just because it's left-wing horse shit doesn't mean it doesn't stink. It's the other side of the coin to Guido Fawkes (whose demise I'd be equally delighted to see, if not moreso), and just as fucking awful.

Of course, they've put the blame for falling revenue on capitalist censorship and 'political Zionists' (yes, really), as opposed to companies just pulling their ads from the site most complained about to IMPRESS in 2017/2018, whose editor in chief says stuff like this:



Or this:



Weathy white centrists? Who *could* she mean by that? It's a real head-scratcher. :roll:

Still, they're moving to a reader pays model, so it'll be interesting to see whether people who love to quote it put their money where their gobs are.
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Brexit Fuckwit Thread

https://twitter.com/john3ners/status/1186748275686[…]

Hammond has got reselected anyway. Same with Ann[…]

@Timbo gonnae pm me the creds?

Richard Littlejohn

:lol: