[youngian]

Not a fan of Ian Austin but this is about right

The Marxist Left blames every problem on the West and America and Israel. For them, the world is a simple place and the solutions are obvious. Thirty years in protest movements making the same speech to people who agree with him means Jeremy has never had to answer a tough question or think about complex problems and difficult solutions.

This is why it is completely untrue for his supporters to claim complaints about anti-Semitism are “whipped up” or have been “weaponised” to undermine him. The reason many mainstream members did not think he should be leader is because he spent so long on the extreme fringes. We were worried that he would turn our mainstream party into a dogmatic and hard-Left organisation, and I’m afraid we’re being proved right. It looks like a very different party to the one I joined https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comm ... 01351.html

[visage]

Momentum have withdrawn support for Willsman.

Their more excitable members are taking it as well as you'd imagine.

[Winegums]

Illegal, you say?

jesus fucking christ this is like pulling teeth. Replace illegal with "falls foul of the new Labour party rules and is therefore grounds for expulsion".

It might be, but they could have easily stuck in the clauses the Home Affairs Select Committee (with Blairites and Tories on it) did, stressing the right to criticize Israel. If there's a disciplinary case, the defendant can refer to that as his defence.

Nobody could have complained about that. Instead they fucked about with sticking in "intent", which is going to be extremely hard to prove.

You mean CHANGE THE PERFECT DEFINITION? Sounds like someone's a secret anti-Semite. Why can't you just accept it as is you fucking racist?

PS The Tories obviously don't have to adhere to this definition or deal with the much worse problem of anti-semitism in their party because this is a sincere issue being argued in good faith.

[youngian]

Momentum are now Blairites apparently

[MisterMuncher]

How racist, anti-semitic, homophobic and generally horrific the Tories are or aren't isn't really the issue. Labour are supposed to be better than them. Fucking act like it.

Whataboutery is a cunt's trick.

[Winegums]

How racist, anti-semitic, homophobic and generally horrific the Tories are or aren't isn't really the issue. Labour are supposed to be better than them. Fucking act like it.

Whataboutery is a cunt's trick.

No they're not. The Tories are meant to be held to the same standards of racism that Labour are. Why do you think the Tories should be allowed to be more racist?

It's not whataboutery, it's pointing out the entirely disingenuous nature of this whole debacle.

[MisterMuncher]

I don't. Learn to read.

It doesn't matter a fuck what the Tories are like. There is an objectively correct path to be taken, and that is what to do, because it's right in and of itself.

Pragmatically, Labour will always have to be cleaner than the Tories because the press is so stacked. It's not fair. Welcome to the world.

[Winegums]

So why is the media so fixated on Labour's relationship with racism and anti-semitism when the problem is far, far worse on the Tory side (to say nothing of the Tories' Islamophobia problems)?

Why have the media gone back 8 years to find Corbyn sharing a platform with a Holocaust survivor who may have said some off-colour things, rather than looking at racism here and now? Why is nobody looking at the actively racist things being done by e.g. Israel right this minute?

Nobody can watch this whole event unfold and believe it's in good faith.

[MisterMuncher]

Fucking hell.

Honestly, it's like it's the first time you've discovered the world isn't fair.

[Tubby Isaacs]

jesus fucking christ this is like pulling teeth. Replace illegal with "falls foul of the new Labour party rules and is therefore grounds for expulsion".

It might be, but they could have easily stuck in the clauses the Home Affairs Select Committee (with Blairites and Tories on it) did, stressing the right to criticize Israel. If there's a disciplinary case, the defendant can refer to that as his defence.

Nobody could have complained about that. Instead they fucked about with sticking in "intent", which is going to be extremely hard to prove.

You mean CHANGE THE PERFECT DEFINITION? Sounds like someone's a secret anti-Semite. Why can't you just accept it as is you fucking racist?

PS The Tories obviously don't have to adhere to this definition or deal with the much worse problem of anti-semitism in their party because this is a sincere issue being argued in good faith.

Haven't changed any definition, any more than the Select Committee did. Just put in general "caveats" as they call them, to apply across the whole document- I've been told that's actually in the IHRA preamble, though not seen it myself. Better than making the victims of racism prove intent, no?

[crabcakes_windermere]

So why is the media so fixated on Labour's relationship with racism and anti-semitism when the problem is far, far worse on the Tory side (to say nothing of the Tories' Islamophobia problems)?

Why have the media gone back 8 years to find Corbyn sharing a platform with a Holocaust survivor who may have said some off-colour things, rather than looking at racism here and now? Why is nobody looking at the actively racist things being done by e.g. Israel right this minute?

Nobody can watch this whole event unfold and believe it's in good faith.

Of course it's not in good faith. It's news. Scandal sells papers etc.

But you know what? Here's the elephant in the room, Winegums: he still fucking did it, didn't he? He still hosted an event where some guy mouthed off a load of dodgy stuff when he was a nobody, then when he was a somebody appears to have changed the rules to let himself off of what he did when he was a nobody. Even if we believe absolutely every word he says and think this and all the other times something antisemitic has drifted past him and he's either missed it or said nothing is all a horrible coincidence, those are the facts and it fucking looks to all the world like it stinks.

He allowed himself to be framed as this decent man of morals ushering in kinder, gentler politics so of COURSE the papers are going to rip him a new one when it turns out he's just another hypocritical, self-serving, arse-covering MP. Corbyn has discovered his (in)actions have consequences. The Tories are wankers who get away with far too much. These aren't mutually exclusive, and the latter isn't a get out of jail free card for the former.

[Andy McDandy]

Popular perception of jews - Jack Benny, Mel Brooks, Maureen Lipman. Holocaust. Cuddly. Funny. Mistreated.

Popular perception of Muslims - gobby, dirty, extremist, Osama, Saddam, Khomeni. Alien. Not white. Not cuddly. No sense of humour. Get what's coming to them.

That's not me or you. But it's true for plenty of people in the small towns that cover this country.

[Winegums]

Fucking hell.

Honestly, it's like it's the first time you've discovered the world isn't fair.

You're not a passive viewer, you're actively perpetuating an unjust world.

So it turns out Daniel Finkelstein, one of the guys most rabidly pushing this, is on the board of a hard right think tank in the US.

[Winegums]

But you know what? Here's the elephant in the room, Winegums: he still fucking did it, didn't he? He still hosted an event where some guy mouthed off a load of dodgy stuff when he was a nobody, then when he was a somebody appears to have changed the rules to let himself off of what he did when he was a nobody. Even if we believe absolutely every word he says and think this and all the other times something antisemitic has drifted past him and he's either missed it or said nothing is all a horrible coincidence, those are the facts and it fucking looks to all the world like it stinks.

He allowed himself to be framed as this decent man of morals ushering in kinder, gentler politics so of COURSE the papers are going to rip him a new one when it turns out he's just another hypocritical, self-serving, arse-covering MP. Corbyn has discovered his (in)actions have consequences. The Tories are wankers who get away with far too much. These aren't mutually exclusive, and the latter isn't a get out of jail free card for the former.

Which of the holocaust survivor's comments about Israel were inappropriate? Why can't someone compare Israel to Nazi Germany?

This is so frustrating. The Israeli government are actively pursuing fascist policy that would disenfranchise Palestinians. The Israelis/right wing at large see Labour as the likely next party in power in the UK. They know Corbyn is sympathetic to Palestine. They know Israel gets away with murder through political allies and favourable status on the right. They know Israel would have a harder time pulling this off with Corbyn's Labour in charge in the UK. How is it not blindingly obvious what is happening?

[Winegums]

Honest and forthright discussion on anti-semitism in this thread.