Topics about the Labour Party
:sunglasses: 77.2 % ❤ 1.8 % :grinning: 12.3 % 🧥 1.8 % 😟 1.8 % :cry: 1.8 % :shit: 3.5 %
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#550306
You’re asking me to explain what’s offensive about something Corbyn has already accepted was offensive and has apologised for?

As to what’s happening, sure he’s getting a tough time. But his reactions have been weak and slow, and it’s not his critics who put him on a pedestal in the first place or made him have so many lapses in judgement. Because at this stage it’s a stupidly long list of things that he’s missed. The Facebook mural comments, the problem with people at events he’s hosting on Holocaust Memorial Day, the fact he said nothing when people in the room were saying dodgy stuff in front of him, his call to Willsman from the Somme, the known holocaust deniers he’s been involved with in pro-Palestine organisations, Livingstone and his woefully slow action, forcing through the watered-down definition of antisemitism that now appears to have been done to save his own arse, the piss-poor Chakrabarti report and her subsequent peerage payoff. I mean come on. None of these are made up. These are all unforced errors. He has a problem of judgement.

He could have sorted this ages ago with strong, quick action and acceptance of a definition no one else has an issue with. Including many of his allies. He hasn’t, he’s let it fester and this is the consequence.
bluebellnutter liked this
#550309
crabcakes_windermere wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:08 pm

He could have sorted this ages ago with strong, quick action and acceptance of a definition no one else has an issue with. Including many of his allies. He hasn’t, he’s let it fester and this is the consequence.
Do you think this definition will be applied equally to all parties, given how vociferously the press and right wing Jewish organisations have gone after Corbyn whilst ignoring anti-Semitism in the tory party/right wing at large?
#550312
No, it's not, but can you construct a coherent narrative in your head for why these organisations go after Corbyn and Labour so hard?
#550316
So you accept all this anti-Semitism stuff is designed just to hurt Corbyn, and isn't in good faith at all?
#550317


Hm, it's almost as though they wanted Labour to adopt the IHRA definition then retroactively use this to point out the times prominent lefties broke their own rules. Y'know, like i said previously.
The JC can reveal that Mr McDonnell signed EDM 2332 in October 2008 to “welcome the launch of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network and its founding Charter” and praised the organisation for speaking out to “discredit Israel's attempts to suppress criticism with false accusations of antisemitism”

But McDonnell’s support for the IJAN, which was founded by anti-Israel activist Sara Kershnar, sparked anger amongst British Jewish groups on Wednesday.

A Jewish Labour Movement spokesperson told the JC: “The Labour Party Leadership has made it very clear that there is one set of rules for Jews, and one set of rules for their comrades.


The charter of the organization openly states they are an “international network of Jews who are uncompromisingly committed to struggles for human emancipation, of which the liberation of the Palestinian people and land is an indispensable part. Our commitment is to the dismantling of Israeli apartheid, the return of Palestinian refugees, and the ending of the Israeli colonization of historic Palestine."
#550318
As Charlie Bucket once despaired, 'Here we go again.'

To those (well, winegums mostly) complaining that this is a smear campaign enacted in bad faith, well of course it is. Some of it. I could fill a big hat with the names of pundits and politicos who see this whole business as an excellent way of getting rid of Jeremy Corbyn; as far as I'm concerned these people do not, in any serious way give a two bob note's worth of a toss about antisemitism, and I, speaking purely personally here you understand, would be delighted if they would stop pretending otherwise...

In fact, the hell with it, I'll go you one further. I think the joint Jewish Chronicle, Jewish Telegraph and Jewish News editorial proclaiming a potential Corbyn-led government an 'existential threat to Jewish life in this country' was hysterical bullshit which, ironically, committed itself to one of the key tropes of modern antisemitism - that there is an irrevocable link between diaspora Jews and the State of Israel (doubly ironic this, given the current Israeli government's increasing despair at the liberal wetness of said diaspora, and increasing reliance on Christian fundamentalists and far right wackos for overseas support). Also the JC's current editor, Stephen 'the left, in any recognisable form, is now the enemy' Pollard is not someone we should be looking to for great insight (or consistency, given that he was quite happy to go to bat for Michal Kaminski when David Cameron landed in the shit for his party's dealings with that unsavoury gentleman).

May I also suggest that James O'Brien, who suggested that Hajo Meyer was using the 'camouflage' (yes, really) of being a Holocaust survivor in his criticism of Israel, should go fuck himself. Not big, not clever, but a heartfelt sentiment. You don't have to agree with Meyer's every statement (just as I didn't agree with Elie Wiesel's), but the man survived Auschwitz, while his father and mother died at Theresienstadt, and these experiences should not be trivialised so that some yapping twat can strut and fret his fifteen minutes of significance on the radio.

I can say all that - is it enough yet? - and still feel my teeth grinding and my fists itching at the ease with which concerns about this stuff are contemptuously flicked away by people who wouldn't dream of treating complaints of Islamophobia in the same, utterly complacent manner. This isn't even theoretical anymore. Some of the people I'm thinking of here are my friends, veterans of many a late night setting the world to rights, with an exasperated landlord's 'For the love of God, will you bastards please go home?' to round off the evening. I like these people. I'm just not entirely sure I trust their judgment anymore. Not on this.

Momentum, by the by, have done the right thing here by dropping Willsman. It's a little glimmer from behind a big black cloud, but it does at least suggest that there are people on the left of the party willing to take this stuff seriously. I'll take it as a start, provided I'm allowed to remain monumentally pissed off with the rest.
cycloon, Oblomov liked this
#550319
To those (well, winegums mostly) complaining that this is a smear campaign enacted in bad faith, well of course it is. Some of it. I could fill a big hat with the names of pundits and politicos who see this whole business as an excellent way of getting rid of Jeremy Corbyn; as far as I'm concerned these people do not, in any serious way give a two bob note's worth of a toss about antisemitism, and I, speaking purely personally here you understand, would be delighted if they would stop pretending otherwise...
So who are these pundits and politicos then?
#550322
Winegums wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:29 am
So you accept all this anti-Semitism stuff is designed just to hurt Corbyn, and isn't in good faith at all?
Sure, bringing it up is clearly designed to hurt him. But he still did it, and has still handled it badly and continues to do so, which is why the press can bring it up and continue to do so because this in itself is news. What faith it’s in doesn’t really matter at this point - the evidence is there and there’s seemingly more of it daily. It being bad faith doesn’t mean you can dismiss recorded fact as irrelevant.

Consequences, essentially. He did whatever he liked before (as it seems did McDonnell, as proposing to rename Holocaust Memorial Day is a massive lapse in judgement). Now he’s being asked to account for it and is making a hash of it.

You were almost there with your claim about why people wanted Labour to adopt the full antisemitism definition, you just had it backwards. You claim it was to entrap people. The problem is, it seems the leadership pushed through the watered down one because they knew there was more than enough material for some of them to be hauled up on it.

How do you think that looks, honestly? Watering down anti-bigotry rules so you don’t have to account for past poor choices? Anything else you’d like adding to the list, like allowing certain racist slurs or sexist language, or is it just Jews who don’t matter?

That’s where we are, Wino. A Labour leader bending the rules to let himself off the hook for past lapses in judgement (except they weren’t lapses - I suspect he didn’t think at all). And your 2 arguments for this to be dropped essentially boil down to “the tories are worse and get off more lightly so let’s lower our standards” and “there is no fabulous centrist replacement so we must stick with Corbyn no matter what because he is left wing”.
Last edited by crabcakes_windermere on Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
Abernathy, oboogie, Oblomov liked this
#550339
Winegums wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:29 am
So you accept all this anti-Semitism stuff is designed just to hurt Corbyn, and isn't in good faith at all?
No. Why is this so hard to grasp?

There is clearly anti-semitism in the Labour party.
Corbyn has not handled it well, as per usual.
There are clearly people who want to make hay out of such a fact, and will act as cynically as possible.

These are not mutually exclusive observations.
lord_kobel liked this
#550347
Winegums wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:29 am
So you accept all this anti-Semitism stuff is designed just to hurt Corbyn, and isn't in good faith at all?
It doesn't fucking matter why people are bringing up the shitty things corbyn said and did, he still said and did the shitty things. Is that really so hard for you to grasp?
#550353
Winegums wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:29 am
So you accept all this anti-Semitism stuff is designed just to hurt Corbyn, and isn't in good faith at all?
You recently accused Tony Blair of having "an insatiable blood lust". Wasn't that also designed merely to discredit him and not in good faith?
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You beat me to it, Arrer :)

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