Discussion of other UK political parties
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By visage
Membership Days Posts
#539184
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -uk-brexit

Its odd that when the headbangers in both main parties repeatedly tell people who are deemed ideologically impure to fuck off and join another party that maybe they'll do just that...

The Corbynistas in particularly seem very vexed on social media.
 
By Abernathy
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#539185
I've been aware of this, or rumours of this, for at least a year. There is no doubt that the cash is there and available to fund the infrastructure and startup operation of the new party in very short order.

Some former Labour staffers are already on board, and it's likely that more might follow in the wake of Jennie Formby's appointment. There is a vague notion that significant numbers of MPs may resign the whip and effectively defect to the new party, but this is very vague, and my view very unlikely at the moment.

And that I think is the big problem. There is no doubt that the putative new party has the resources, but there is a huge question about whether it has the right strategy or plan in place.

People are rightly wary of the example of the SDP, which soared like a rocket initially but was ultimately arguably responsible for 18 continuous years of Tory government. In 1981/2, I'm quite sure that the Gang of Four rightly perceived that the forces of the Left and Militant were changing the Labour Party in a way that was intolerable to them. They did not forsee the arrival of Neil Kinnock's courageous leadership and rescue of the party as an electable entity once more, nor Tony Blair's masterfully single-minded capture of government in 1997.

I suppose the differences today are that Corbyn and the far left actually have a very real, and very much stronger than ever before, deathly, powerful grip on the party's leadership and structures, which is secured by the importation to the party membership of around 200,000 members of a new cult of personality dedicated to sustaining Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the party. Their voting power effectively makes Corbyn's leadership unassailable. This may mean that flight to a new party may eventually seem an irresistible imperative. But some MPs in particular may prove diificult to secure committment from.

So I think the new party remains possible, but still at this point, quite unlikely. A general election defeat, whether it transpires following a crisis of government precipitated by the defeat in parliament of May's final Brexit deal towards the end of this year in a GE substantially fought on Brexit (given Corbyn's atrocious record of complicity with the Tory Brexit agenda, Labour would be very likely to suffer and fail in such an election), or, more likely, at the next scheduled GE in 2022, would I think, precipitate an irreparable schism in Labour that would see the new party taking shape and coming to the fore, ultimately, in my view, displacing Labour as the viable left-centre alternative.
visage liked this
 
By Malcolm Armsteen
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#539186
I must admit that I'd like to see the creation of a 'third way' party, preferably without an increasingly religious nutter as leader, but following liberal, tolerant, socially cohesive and socialist policies. A leftie Macron.

Like Abers I don't see it happening until the wheels come off the Labour Party, which I am convinced will happen if the leadership doesn't mend its ways, which is pretty unlikely, or when they take a kicking at a GE.
 
By youngian
Membership Days Posts
#539196
I have no interest in sharing a party with Osborne and Soubry. Labour will need grown-ups to wipe the jelly and ice cream off the walls after the children run off blabbing peeing their pants. Its not ideology that's a problem for me but juvenile amateur zealotry and populism just like the clueless Brexiters. You only have to read the rubbish on this thread to see that

 
By Bones McCoy
Membership Days Posts
#539216
visage wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:59 am
Its all a conspiracy to stop Jez from taking his rightful place as lord high ruler of everything forever and ever.
Whatever it is, It'll do the Tories work for them by splitting the opposition vote.

Prepare for several decades of Johnston, Gove, Fox and Rees-Mogg lording it over us with a low 30s % of votes.
 
By Boiler
Posts
#539239
Sadly true: I blame the SDP 100% for splitting the vote and subjecting us to eighteen years of Toryism and a virtual continuation of their policies under Blair, albeit with a hint of social conscience. Okay, I know I have my prejudices about New Labour and I know they did some good; but from my personal perspective at least they were just as bad as the party that preceded them. I didn't realise what was to come after would be worse still, but at least Mrs. B. was spared the evil of IDS.

A centrist party will do the same: split votes but never actually achieve power and sadly, it is more likely to enable an ever-more right wing Conservative Party, where everything has a price tag and if you can't afford it, well, it's not our fault you're not rich/feckless than it is a progressive form of socialism.
 
By The Weeping Angel
Membership Days Posts
#539241
Boiler wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:32 pm
Sadly true: I blame the SDP 100% for splitting the vote and subjecting us to eighteen years of Toryism and a virtual continuation of their policies under Blair, albeit with a hint of social conscience. Okay, I know I have my prejudices about New Labour and I know they did some good; but from my personal perspective at least they were just as bad as the party that preceded them. I didn't realise what was to come after would be worse still, but at least Mrs. B. was spared the evil of IDS.

A centrist party will do the same: split votes but never actually achieve power and sadly, it is more likely to enable an ever-more right wing Conservative Party, where everything has a price tag and if you can't afford it, well, it's not our fault you're not rich/feckless than it is a progressive form of socialism.
Some of the blame for that also has to go to the Bennites and the hard left, for creating an atmosphere whereby if you weren't 100% with them you weren't really a socialist. By basically acting like dickheads, people got fed up and left.
By Andy McDandy
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#539251
Tories aren't so bothered by ideology. Get power, then decide what to do with it. And have your arguments in private.
 
By Boiler
Posts
#539256
Littlejohn's brain wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:06 pm
Some of the blame for that also has to go to the Bennites and the hard left, for creating an atmosphere whereby if you weren't 100% with them you weren't really a socialist. By basically acting like dickheads, people got fed up and left.
I wouldn't go so far as 'acting like dickheads', but broadly I agree with you, LJB. And forty years later, we seem to have forgotten that "Oh, we didn't win - maybe it was because we weren't left wing enough?" has seemingly not been learned, most probably by people who weren't around at the time.

@Malcolm Armsteen may well remember this better than me because I was a fourteen year old at the time doing the things that fourteen year olds did then, but it was suggested to me that Callaghan's big tactical error was not to go to the country in the autumn of 1978, but instead had opted for an approach roughly that of "things are picking up after our 'austerity' measures (I use the term advisedly), let people see things are getting better and we'll be okay if we go to the country in the Spring of '79."

What was it that was said about people not learning from history? :roll:
 
By Bones McCoy
Membership Days Posts
#539264
bluebellnutter wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:04 pm
So how does this "split the Labour vote" thing work for the moderate Tories who'll be bought on board?
History shows that defecting Tories can usually be counted on the fingers of one finger.

They've got the wining lottery ticket, generous donors, tame press, helpful establishment.
Just sit tight, don't rock the boat and collect your winnings.
Lost your seat - no problem we'll sort you out with a couple of newspaper columns and a radio show.
That'll keep you in gin and canapes until the next election.
 
By bluebellnutter
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#539276
In ordinary times, you're right. But these aren't ordinary times. If the business community decide to back the centrist party because of their desire not to have a Rees-Mogg type Brexit then that changes things. The one thing Tories do better than anyone else is "follow the money".

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