Discussion of other UK political parties
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#577123
Oblomov wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:12 am
Winegums wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:08 pm
Oblomov wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:18 am


Presumably this false equivalency applies to Jezza's stubbornness as well?
My point is saying someone's good for sticking to their guns, rather than caring about what their actual issue is, is pretty damning by faint praise. Thatcher stuck to her guns too.

So why is it when Jezza does it we're to view him as a man of conviction and believe in his vision but a group like ChangeUK is to regarded with contempt and cynicism for they are obviously doing it for their own self interest?
Because when Corbyn's held his ground, as with when he's defied the whip, it's been over things like privatising the NHS, Iraq etc. It's not the act of defiance which makes you a winner it's whether you were right.
Also, I notice that your criticisms of ChUK have been mainly skewed towards the Labour portion (and attempting to disprove their reasoning that they can no longer abide by growing antisemitism amongst the ranks) but you've said little on the Tories that joined who are rebelling against poor Brexit policy. Is there any particular reason for that?
Because change_UK.peoplesvotenow#FBPE(2) are inherently comedic and dumb and taking them seriously is futile. Like whoever upthread suggested they'd made some sort of mark on politics is clearly taking the piss, because obviously a party which got 1% of the vote will change politics as much as Liz Kendall changed the direction of the Labour Party, or DRUGSTORE_CULTURE changed the face of journalism.
#577132
Because when Corbyn's held his ground, as with when he's defied the whip, it's been over things like privatising the NHS, Iraq etc. It's not the act of defiance which makes you a winner it's whether you were right.
Tell me about his 40 year career of lining up with Bill Cash on Brexit.
oboogie, Oblomov liked this
#577133
Winegums wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:41 pm
Because when Corbyn's held his ground, as with when he's defied the whip, it's been over things like privatising the NHS, Iraq etc. It's not the act of defiance which makes you a winner it's whether you were right.
And sticking up for serial human rights abusing dictator Slobodan Milošević.
oboogie liked this
#577159
bluebellnutter wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:21 pm
Winegums wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:41 pm
Because when Corbyn's held his ground, as with when he's defied the whip, it's been over things like privatising the NHS, Iraq etc. It's not the act of defiance which makes you a winner it's whether you were right.
And sticking up for serial human rights abusing dictator Slobodan Milošević.
First I've heard of this, is there a source? Because that's absolutely bonkers if it's true.

*edited for spelling as I'm yet to have my stirring java jolt this morn
#577163
Winegums wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:41 pm
Oblomov wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:12 am
Winegums wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:08 pm


My point is saying someone's good for sticking to their guns, rather than caring about what their actual issue is, is pretty damning by faint praise. Thatcher stuck to her guns too.

So why is it when Jezza does it we're to view him as a man of conviction and believe in his vision but a group like ChangeUK is to regarded with contempt and cynicism for they are obviously doing it for their own self interest?
Because when Corbyn's held his ground, as with when he's defied the whip, it's been over things like privatising the NHS, Iraq etc. It's not the act of defiance which makes you a winner it's whether you were right.
Also, I notice that your criticisms of ChUK have been mainly skewed towards the Labour portion (and attempting to disprove their reasoning that they can no longer abide by growing antisemitism amongst the ranks) but you've said little on the Tories that joined who are rebelling against poor Brexit policy. Is there any particular reason for that?
Because Change UK (The Independent Group).peoplesvotenow#FBPE(2) are inherently comedic and dumb and taking them seriously is futile. Like whoever upthread suggested they'd made some sort of mark on politics is clearly taking the piss, because obviously a party which got 1% of the vote will change politics as much as Liz Kendall changed the direction of the Labour Party, or DRUGSTORE_CULTURE changed the face of journalism.
Okay but my point wasn't about winning, it was about integrity of position which you can't seem to begrudge any to ChangeUK but have an abundance of admiration for Jezza's slacktivism, which as time goes on seems to become worryingly blurred with virtue signalling than genuinely heartfelt.

But say it is about defying the whip for the sake of what's right, then surely ChangeUK deserve a smidgen of praise for taking a stand against Corbyn over injustices he's ignored in his own party or a bullheaded stubborness over Brexit which will be a disaster for the country short and medium, possibly even long term, but it fits his worldview so naysayers be damned (and it's not like he will live long enough to endure the hardships that come with such an economic downturn, nor he will be uncomfortable during transition phase he'll be alive for).

Maybe in a macro sense ChangeUK will be but a footnote in history but I will certainly remember the time the leadership of the main parties was so poor MPs from both sides felt obliged (and confident enough) to meet in the middle and try to thrash out an alternative.
#577173
Oblomov wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:40 am
bluebellnutter wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:21 pm
Winegums wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:41 pm
Because when Corbyn's held his ground, as with when he's defied the whip, it's been over things like privatising the NHS, Iraq etc. It's not the act of defiance which makes you a winner it's whether you were right.
And sticking up for serial human rights abusing dictator Slobodan Milošević.
First I've heard of this, is there a source? Because that's absolutely bonkers if it's true.

*edited for spelling as I'm yet to have my stirring java jolt this morn
Basically John Pilger did his usual anti interventionist spiel relating to Kosovo. Jezza (pretty fucking obviously) jumped on board with an EDM: https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/26919

Thankfully they were ignored, the UK and NATO intervened, and Milosevic was stopped from slaughtering Kosovoan Muslims.

Right side of history, my arse.
#577181
visage wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:04 am
Oblomov wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:40 am
bluebellnutter wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:21 pm


And sticking up for serial human rights abusing dictator Slobodan Milošević.
First I've heard of this, is there a source? Because that's absolutely bonkers if it's true.

*edited for spelling as I'm yet to have my stirring java jolt this morn
Basically John Pilger did his usual anti interventionist spiel relating to Kosovo. Jezza (pretty fucking obviously) jumped on board with an EDM: https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/26919

Thankfully they were ignored, the UK and NATO intervened, and Milosevic was stopped from slaughtering Kosovoan Muslims.

Right side of history, my arse.
Thanks for the link, I'm gobsmacked and really hoping he signed out of naive kneejerking upon hearing of American/NATO involvement rather than actually thinking about it. I dread to think how he regards Srebrenica.
#577185
There's a certain amount of mythology around Corbyn's 'right side of history' qualities.

He's not some wise sage who looks at a situation and comes up with the right answer. He's just an old school anti-imperialist non-interventionist.

The reason why he seems to be correct is not because of insight, but because we, as a nation have done some dumb fucking shit (most notably Iraq).

Under a Corbyn leadership we wouldn't have intervened to liberate the Falklands. We wouldn't have intervened in Sierra Leone. We wouldn't have intervened in the former Yugoslavia. He's on record as saying we've had no legitimate military campaigns since WW2.

They dont get mentioned so much.
oboogie, lord_kobel liked this
#577206
Back to talking about not-cuck in the cuck thread.

Corbyn's a non-interventionalist. Do the lives saved in Kosovo outweigh the lives lost in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan? Are we trending towards humanitarian efforts or just letting MPs get excited about playing toy soldiers with new bombs?
#577243
Opposing the intervention against a dangerous despot (when we don't have any oil treasures to gain) is one thing but to also support a claim that said despot didn't ethnically cleanse anyone and any reports that he did are completely fabricated? That's whole torso in sand, not just head.
lord_kobel liked this
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