Political talk from outside of the UK
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By The Weeping Angel
Membership Days Posts
#626855
oboogie wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:23 pm
Well I do find people who resort to Strawman arguments tedious and dull. But I don't regard that as a problem, I'd say it's more of a strength. In fact I'm rather proud of it.
So how is pointing out that Roosevelt allowed the internment of thousands of Japanese-Americans a Strawman argument?
 
By oboogie
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#626864
The Weeping Angel wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:34 pm
oboogie wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:23 pm
Well I do find people who resort to Strawman arguments tedious and dull. But I don't regard that as a problem, I'd say it's more of a strength. In fact I'm rather proud of it.
So how is pointing out that Roosevelt allowed the internment of thousands of Japanese-Americans a Strawman argument?
It isn't, but as I never said it was, that question is itself a Strawman.
 
By Malcolm Armsteen
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#626868
mr angry manchester wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:17 pm
To summarise. Roosevelt was, overall, outstandingly good, apart from interning Japanese Americans.

Trump, on the other hand, is crap.
There were other things - he was a 'man of his time and bit better' on racial politics, and the times were very wrong for confronting Southern Democrats on that front. Lyndon Johnson had trouble with that one 25 years later. He did, however, end discrimination in government service - possibly as a result of circumstances rather than principle.

He theatened to pack the Supreme Court, which was widely criticised even by his supporters.

He made big inroads into the depression and unemployment through the New Deal (which was often stymied by Republican courts) but the real cure was war production and the war itself.
 
By oboogie
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#626985
Just watched part one of The Trump Show (BBC2). An extraordinary catalogue of all the career ending moments of the last four years told by the insiders he's stabbed in the back. No great surprises so far, but a few bits I'd forgotten and seeing all Trump's worst bits complied and compressed into an hour is really quite breathtaking. At the moment I'm unable to process my thoughts beyond "fuckin' 'ell" (no TV reviewer me) but it left me eager for part 2. Handily, they've just announced part 2 is already available on the iplayer...so it's going to be a late one for me.
 
By youngian
Membership Days Posts
#627001
Just watched part one of The Trump Show (BBC2).

One of the few things that encourages me to give Trump a sympathetic hearing is an interview with John Bolton. Speaking about the Jong Un summit, Bolton was right that Trump was a loose lipped amateur. Trump’s intentions weren’t dangerous and the showbiz wooing he bought with him was sort of novel but never amounted to a hill a beans. A crooked POTUS whose main interest is to build hotels in North Korea is a better option than a fanatical Neo-Con like Bolton in power who wants to set the world alight
 
By Arrowhead
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#627245
A sobering article on how Trumpism is almost certainly here to stay, regardless of the result next month - the Rolling Stone website is a dumpster fire of jumping text and autoplay ads, so I've copied the text below instead:
Even in Defeat, Trumpism Isn’t Going Anywhere
Republicans pining for days gone by have some tough truths to face
By Tim Miller

As the mad king raged at Savannah Guthrie for having the gall to question him about his conspiracy mongering, mask trutherism, and failure to even pretend to manage the coronavirus pandemic that is ravaging the country, the wishcasting texts and tweets began anew.

When this is over, can we get our Grand Ol’ Party party back?

As an O.G. Never Trumper, this is a question that I get a lot — from miserable GOP consultants, fellow ostracized Republicans, bewildered members of the political media, and liberals craving an opposition they can at least understand.

My phone tends to buzz more any time the president’s political fortunes look especially bleak. Or when the slightest nub of the cervical spine appears on a Republican elected official. (Did you see?!? McConnell oh-so-slightly distanced himself from Trump! Audio of Ben Sasse saying things about Trump that all the Republican senators know is true but never admit because they are scared of a mean tweet leaked! Larry Hogan wrote-in zombie Ronald Reagan!)

If Trump loses in November, there will be endless cable panels and egghead Zoom conferences on the matter, with pundits and strategists trying to will the Republican Party back to sanity.

Here’s the reality. (Brace yourself. I hate to be the bearer of bad news.) Trumpism is forever, even if Trump is only president for a few more months. This is true both in the literal sense regarding the Orange First Family’s presence in our lives as well as in regard to the nature of the party itself, which is driven by voter priorities that have diverged from the “classical liberal” values that many conservative intellectuals claimed to prize.

For starters, even in defeat, Trump himself isn’t going anywhere. I hate to break it to you, but this ex-president will not be of a mind to retire to Texas for a quiet second life as a fabulous painter and bicycling enthusiast, only to pop his head up for an occasional charity infomercial.

No, Donald Trump is a man whose heart is a black hole that requires infinite praise and attention to be sustained. Whether he finds this validation through the purchase of a stupider, more soulless Fox News competitor or just spends his days in his pajamas calling into “the shows,” it is certain that he will not let us forget him. Nor will he abide any slights by the Republicans who are left standing. As The Bulwark‘s Jonathan V. Last put it, “Trump’s real passion seems to be fighting Republicans whom he deems insufficiently loyal,” and in a post-presidency I can promise you he will expend his political capital keeping the weak! Republicans in line. He gave a preview of this on The Rush Limbaugh Show last week, saying that Republicans aren’t acting tough enough on so-called Obamagate: “This is what I mean with Republicans, they don’t play the tough game.”

Plus, there is no reason to believe Trump would not attempt to pull a Grover Cleveland and run for a second, non-consecutive presidential term. (I have to admit to getting a bit of masochistic joy out of bringing this up to people who had not yet considered it. You are welcome for the night sweats.) Even if he doesn’t pull the trigger on such a run, he will certainly relish the prospect of a Trump redux hanging over our politics for a few years. If in the end he takes a pass, who’s to say that Don Jr. won’t attempt to follow in Daddy’s footsteps.

The Trumps themselves will be with us for years, or decades, to come. It is inevitable.

Here’s the even more foreboding reality: Trumpism is forever not just because of the president’s narcissistic pathologies, but also because it’s what Republican voters want.

There may have been a time when the party voters’ base desires were held in check by gatekeeping elites, but that time is long past. Party politics in the age of the internet are driven bottom up, not top down, and in the GOP, the bottoms are wearing red hats.

Some khaki-clad traditional Republicans who yearn for a resurrection of compassionate conservatism posit that these trends are temporary, that the Trumpian fever will break, voter loyalty will fade if the man whose brand is #winning loses to Sleepy Joe. They cling to the faulty notion that President Trump is an aberration, a one-off black swan event that can never be replicated.

There are several problems with this theory. The first is that it misdiagnoses Trump’s rise. He was not an outlier but the apotheosis of a decades-long populist takeover of the GOP. His ascension to the party crown has exacerbated and supercharged the trend line.

As Brad Todd, one of the top Republican campaign consultants and author of The Great Revolt: Inside the Populist Coalition Reshaping American Politics, told me: “This is something that has been coming for 25 years, back to when I was working a Senate race in Georgia in 2004 between [Johnny] Isakson, Mac Collins, and Herman Cain.” Todd said that he was philosophically more of an “open borders guy” but recognized that in the face of perceived inaction on the matter in Washington, the GOP base “felt like it wasn’t being heard, which understandably resulted in more and more virulence” about immigration in the ensuing years. He added that while debates over the minimum wage, Social Security, and Medicare may still rage in conservative D.C. think tanks, “the debate is over” for the GOP electorate: “The neoconservative WSJ-ed board answer, of leaning on the freedom foot every time, is currently losing that argument inside the GOP after winning it for decades,” and “the cultural debate in the country is what energizes both parties right now.”

Consider that in 1992, George H.W. Bush faced two populist, nativist, and explicitly racist primary challengers in Pat Buchanan, who defined his political program as a “culture war,” and the white supremacist David Duke. In each of the first 14 contests, Buchanan and Duke combined to receive at least 25 percent of the vote, with Buchanan getting a high of 37.5 percent in New Hampshire. It was the Buchananite wing of the party that grew in the ensuing quarter-century to become large enough to propel Trump to the nomination in 2016.

Four years later President Trump didn’t face a comparable primary threat from an anti-populist wing. His three quixotic challengers — Bill Weld, Joe Walsh, and Mark Sanford — added together only managed to get 10 percent of the vote in a couple of states on the Northeastern seaboard and mostly languished in the single digits. Meanwhile the party apparatus aligned behind the wanna-be strongman president, canceling several primaries and caucuses with nary a peep from elected Republicans. None of the prominent party leaders or even former party leaders who claimed to oppose Trump endorsed one of his primary opponents or worked to get a bigger name challenger into the race. Nor did any of the major players in the Trump-aligned conservative media.

“It’s a cult. I ran headfirst into a cult,” said Walsh, a former member of Congress. “GOP money people couldn’t stand him but wouldn’t give any challenger [support]. GOP base voters are completely tied to him … It was mission impossible.” If you think Walsh is exaggerating, consider the data.

One GOP consultant told me that in a GOP primary poll the “number one issue for 80-plus percent of GOP primary voters was loyalty to Trump.” When I ran that number by several other Republican pollsters, there was universal concurrence that sticking with Trump was the top concern among GOP regulars. But they also noted that among the other top priorities were immigration restrictions, opposition to Black Lives Matter, and cracking down on “rioters.”

What’s clear is that the classically liberal, democratic values and American exceptionalist tropes that defined the GOP in the past are no longer a driver for voters who either fundamentally don’t care or are actively hostile to them. This is evidenced not just in polls of GOP voters but in engagement in the conservative media. Tucker Carlson’s White Power Hour is the most-watched TV show in the country. Outlets that don’t bend the knee to Trump, like the Weekly Standard, are shuttered.

Some of this is due to the fact that the party makeup itself has evolved. Political analyst Ron Brownstein told me that Trump is “shifting the coalition further in the direction of voters who respond to Trumpism.”

In 2016 Trump received somewhere around 10 percent of his vote from people who had supported Obama in 2012, while about 4 percent went from Romney to Clinton. This shift is largely composed of white, working-class, non-college-educated voters moving from blue to red and white, college-educated suburbanites going in the other direction. This shift continued in the 2018 midterms, when non-Trump Republicans suffered shocking losses in red districts with higher-education levels like Charleston, South Carolina, but held firm in more rural districts and those with fewer voters with a college degree.

Brownstein pointed out that the GOP dropped from holding 43 percent to 24 percent of the House districts with an above-average share of college-educated residents in 2018! The party seems poised to lose even more of them this fall. By 2019 Pew showed that the share of white, college-educated GOP voters had dropped from 30 percent to 25 percent, while its share of the general population grew. This means that a significant percentage of the voters who were a “moderating” influence on GOP primaries have left the party and been replaced by an influx of culturally conservative, populist Trumpists.

As for the theory that this incentive structure will change if Biden wins and Trump becomes a “loser” — won’t the base come to its senses and stop following a whiny loser, won’t Trump be dispatched to the great Alaskan wilderness and D-list reality-TV purgatory that currently houses Sarah Palin? — this seems more like wishful thinking from consultants and pundits who don’t realize the party has passed them by than a realistic turn of events.

A big swath of the GOP base — possibly a majority — will believe that the election was stolen from Trump if he loses. Sixty-five percent of Republicans do not believe the election will be conducted fairly, according to an August NBC poll. 65 percent! And that’s before the interminable two months between Election Day and Inauguration Day, when the president of the United States is using the biggest bully pulpit in the world to announce that American democracy is dead and our elections rigged.

Even in the best of cases, where Joe Biden blows out President Trump to such a degree that contesting the election seems crazy to all but the most Q’d-out elements of the GOP base (which is still, conservatively speaking, one-fifth of the party), the damage will already be done. Left in the wreckage will be a Trumpified congressional delegation; an increasingly white, working-class, anti-immigrant party base with a conservative media and social media structure that incentivizes more extreme, anti-elite, “owning the libs” sentiment; and Trump himself maintaining a niche cultish following that he’s willing to deploy against those who undermine him.

In short, it’s the recipe for a MAGA-fied party set to continue down the orange-bricked road for years to come.
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By Tubby Isaacs
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#627256
We've been here before in 2008, with the game supposed to be up for the GOP. They promptly formed the Tea Party and won the House back and might have won in 2012 with a more "populist" candidate than Romney. But I think there's more reason to think they're in trouble this time if they lose badly.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/03/90743351 ... 3045001133

Whites without college degrees rising only in New Mexico out of the 16 states listed (which include most competitive ones), while whites with college degrees are rising in nearly all of them. Of course the GOP do pretty well with these, but not so well that they can be considered a base. Virginia has the starkest change in the education level of its whites, and has moved massively towards the Democrats.

Same with Hispanic voters, albeit with a surprising fall in Wisconsin that is hard to explain. Is there a growth in Asian Americans there, perhaps? If that's so, then the GOP might need to be even more worried because that's another ethnic group where the GOP are hopeless.

I think it was David Frum recently who flagged up that white evangelicals are declining compared with non-evangelical white Christians.. Again, the GOP do well with the latter group but it's a bad trade for them.
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