[Oblomov]

[Timbo]

If you take off the Rhodes statue for "memorializing", should you take off that nice stone writing too? After all, it says "by the great generosity of Cecil Rhodes". That would be going too far for me. I appreciate that there's no easy answer, and lines will be drawn, but I'd like us to establish some solid principles on this stuff.

I think there is a bit of a danger in taking these things down. It's not because it would 'erase our history', (nobody learns history from statues), but because it risks us forgetting that bad people can also do good things. I'd quite like there to be conversations about Rhodes for many generations to come, and for people to know that people who can be the good guys in one place, can be the opposite in another.

In a world where we seem increasingly obsessed with binary divisions and nuance being dismissed, I think it's more important than ever for people to remember what much of our Victorian prosperity was actually built on, and not slip into the complacent delusion that all bad people are entirely-bad pantomime villains. I think it risks letting the next Cecil Rhodes off the hook.

[Andy McDandy]

Put things in context. Explain things. Lay out the facts and ask people to reach their own conclusions. Yes, Rhodes funded this thing, but did you know that his money came from...

In a world where we seem increasingly obsessed with binary divisions and nuance being dismissed, I think it's more important than ever for people to remember what much of our Victorian prosperity was actually built on, and not slip into the complacent delusion that all bad people are entirely-bad pantomime villains. I think it risks letting the next Cecil Rhodes off the hook.

Absolutely. And as someone once pointed out, if human history had evolved without any questionable acts, Olduvai Gorge would be bloody crowded about now.

[The Weeping Angel]

We could do that, or, (and this is the great idea), let's tear down his statue.

EDITED FOR LEGIBILITY

[Timbo]

We could do that or and this is the great idea let's tear down his statue.

Great, then we can not only continue to ignore all the present-day slavery on which our modern society depends, but start to ignore all the historical stuff, too. It would be so much more comfortable if I didn't have to know the parks I enjoy and the grand squares and terraces were built with Irish hunger, African blood and Indian tears. Much better that no child ever gets the opportunity to ask "who's that man on the statue, mummy?" to be told "a piece of shit, darling, a piece of shit".

[Oblomov]

Much better that no child ever gets the opportunity to ask "who's that man on the statue, mummy?" to be told "a piece of shit, darling, a piece of shit".

This was the question raised on James O'Brien last week that gave me pause for thought about if the whole "preserving history for educational purposes" argument still washes (and I've still not arrived at a conclusion thus my mostly lurking in this thread).

[Kreuzberger]

I hate it when this happens; I get a clear(ish) solution in to my head and it usually means that I have completely missed the point.

First off, the "are 'ischstrie" brigade. To a man, none of them have ever shown any interest whatsoever in any kind of learning, discovery, or deeper understanding. So, I am calling nonsense on that. Their sole interest is in validating their fragile insecurities by claiming to be the natural heir to these cartoon-like, two-dimensional, and romanticised heroes of the past.

Have memorials to their victims instead, and make history a fundamental and compulsory pillar of the curriculum, and we will be able to start the process of reset.

This reset is not optional for a society that wants to progress. And that is because these distortions of historical fact serve to aid and abet Gammonry. Being Gammon is easy; it allows you to punch down while simultaneously claim to be hard done by. (Legitimate Concerns?) It's a darn sight easier than seizing every opportunity you can and trying to weave something sustainable with it. And, when it comes to these Gammon, let's remember that it was, on reflection, so much easier for white, working class men those 30-odd years ago when they were being crafted in to the adults they are today. In many aspects, I fit their profile to a tee. I was there.

This is what happens when you hit the reset. Who is going to argue with me that a statue of Adolf is more enlightening that this?

[Boiler]

It wasn't until I explored the city further that I noticed all the little plaques in Paris commemorating Resistance fighters, and on a tangent, the little markers that tell you the depth of the water in the 1910 Flood in various places (something we thought we were going to see again in 2016).

[Malcolm Armsteen]

You make a strong case, Kreuz. In France we also have those little (or in some cases large) memorials, and they are a constant reminder - though of course German willingness to face up to the transgressions in their past and acknowledge them makes them less divisive. Properly learning from their history.

The idea as often expressed is that the British believe themselves exceptional because of the 'never been invaded' balls. I think that may have some validity. They don't learn their history (the choice has always been to learn geography instead) because they don't have to. They've had the pap version fed to them, and that's all they need.

[Cyclist]

And let's get the study of this as a compulsory part of the national curriculum

[The Red Arrow]

Further to Mr A's post, above -

That's his real name. I checked. He's an MP and everything...

[davidjay]

Further to Mr A's post, above -

That's his real name. I checked. He's an MP and everything...

You don't say...

[The Weeping Angel]

For fuck's sake

This was clearly done by people with fuck all knowledge of history or Ulysess S. Grant

[lord_kobel]

Indeed. This is the proper way to do it:

[Tubby Isaacs]

Ulysses Grant? The General who beat the Confederacy?