Archive of old topics pre-October 2007. PM a mod to get one reopened
By bairy
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.. and northern rock think they've got issues: ... 4350.shtml

$9 trillion / 302 million people = $29,801 per person

To compare, our debt is about £1 trillion IIRC / 60 million = £16,666 = $33,200 per person.

According to wiki, for 2006, the USA GDP = $13.2TN, the UK GDP is $2.3TN (~£1.2TN)
By Beast of Bolsover
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Those are scary figures , but I find it hard to understand them. Each time I try to educate myself about this area of economics my brain turns to spaghetti and ties itself in knots. The UK figures may be accurate , possibly even worse . Figures that edge around the 1 to 1.3 trillion mark are often quoted by opponents of the government by using different calculation methods to those currently employed . These totals include monies from PFI's , unpaid pensions and debts incurred via the governments underpinning of network rail . The treasury on the other hand contends the figure is around half that and that the economics are healthy so long as the debt is around 40% of GDP (my head is beginning to hurt ) . Certainly most economists say the economy is in a far healthier state than 15 odd years ago under the sterling hands of the tories , but I personally do not like PPP's and PFI's and see it just another form privatisation ( companies build and we pay over 20 / 30 years and then that payment is just renting if I remember rightly) . Further if the US goes tits up and China et al sends those petro dollars flying back to their home , everyone will get it in the neck .
I can't help but think also it doesn't help having western economies move to tertiary sector economies . It's an old moan but the shrinking manufacturing base does not bode well . In years to come , the rising nations will provide more and more service sector jobs . Throw in the move towards more "free trade" and globalisation as enforced by the WTO , World Bank ,IMF etc and matters look more shitty.
Meanwhile you still have dumb ideas like trickle down pervading . Supply side economics only makes the rich richer and in turn can be used as an excuse to make the poor work harder . It's complete bollocks . When Bush talks of tax cuts you gotta know who he is looking after . A massive debt in America (whose underpinnings seem shakier than parkinsons infected jelly) and still the right are calling for the abolition of inheritance taxes , even flat tax systems . Sheer insanity . The big picture certainly lends weight to conspiracists among us and the war on terror / PANC / imperialist moves for control of resources in the middle east as a move to secure the US economy and provide a future check against a rising China .I have even seen comments that in the US a large debt is a good thing even if the system crashes as it will force the selling off of government assets at fire sale prices .And in the meantime , the US actually does employ a Keynesian system , but one of excessive Keynesian Militarian spending program permanently locked into the spend cycle on a massive scale but for weapons and not the save cycle needed to redress the balance.....Rome anyone? The bottom line seems to always be that since the collapse of the Soviet system and the rise to dominance of free trade and cutting back of social democratic programs across the globe generally , we have all bought into a system that screws those at the sharp end . Let's raise taxes for bastards like Viscount Rothermere ( for all intents and purposes the owner of Daily Mail PLC) comrade.World revolution NOW. :wink:
Can anyone with a much better education and understanding of economics help me out here . I fear my ramblings are possibly incoherent , ill-informed nonsense and my head hurts . Right now I am off to listen to Billy Bragg's version of World Turned Upside Down several times...


In 1649
To St. George’s Hill,
A ragged band they called the Diggers
Came to show the people’s will
They defied the landlords
They defied the laws
They were the dispossessed reclaiming what was theirs

We come in peace they said
To dig and sow
We come to work the lands in common
And to make the waste ground grow
This earth divided
We will make whole
So it will be
A common treasury for all

The sin of property
We do disdain
No man has any right to buy and sell
The earth for private gain
By theft and murder
They took the land
Now everywhere the walls
Spring up at their command

They make the laws
To chain us well
The clergy dazzle us with heaven
Or they damn us into hell
We will not worship
The God they serve
The God of greed who feed the rich
While poor folk starve

We work we eat together
We need no swords
We will not bow to the masters
Or pay rent to the lords
Still we are free
Though we are poor
You Diggers all stand up for glory
Stand up now

From the men of property
The orders came
They sent the hired men and troopers
To wipe out the Diggers’ claim
Tear down their cottages
Destroy their corn
They were dispersed
But still the vision lingers on

You poor take courage
You rich take care
This earth was made a common treasury
For everyone to share
All things in common
All people one
We come in peace
The orders came to cut them down"

Fat chance of that.

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