[Big Rob]

I'm going bald. short of doing the dry weave top sheet thing or a straightforward syrup of fig my choices are non-existent. doesn't stop people from making snarky comments, though.

for my part, I won't knock people - even burchill - for being unlucky enough to own a squeaky voice that they're unable to change. I'm sure that on oboogie's evidence malcolm will be inclined to agree.

Well that would be your choice. I am not knocking it.

I think people have this argument the wrong way around.

My position is if I were to make a snarky comment about something that someone has no control of what right would I have to complain if snarky comments were made about me?

If I treat other people badly then what right do I have to expect decent treatment off others?

[oboogie]

Would it get me ignored by both of you if I said I think you're both right, and that I'd be much happier not to see you at odds?

No Malcolm.
I think I've made my case quite clearly. As you can see, at no time have I accused Abernathy of "gratuitously criticising Burchill on the sole basis of her voice" and if Abernathy actually read my posts, he would see that too.
As I've explained, I think he was out of order and I suspect that he probably knows that too, but instead of acknowledging his poor judgement in a civilised manner he goes on the attack and accuses me of things which I haven't actually done.
It's quite farcical really as he can't even see what I actually wrote.

[oboogie]

I'm going bald. short of doing the dry weave top sheet thing or a straightforward syrup of fig my choices are non-existent. doesn't stop people from making snarky comments, though.

for my part, I won't knock people - even burchill - for being unlucky enough to own a squeaky voice that they're unable to change. I'm sure that on oboogie's evidence malcolm will be inclined to agree.

Well that would be your choice. I am not knocking it.

I think people have this argument the wrong way around.

My position is if I were to make a snarky comment about something that someone has no control of what right would I have to complain if snarky comments were made about me?

If I treat other people badly then what right do I have to expect decent treatment off others?

I think it's you that's got it the wrong way round Rob.
What right have we got to criticise the behaviour of others if we behave in a similar fashion?
As I said, if 'fat' jokes are wrong when applied to John Prescott then they must also be wrong when applied to Eric Pickles.

[Big Rob]

I think it's you that's got it the wrong way round Rob.
What right have we got to criticise the behaviour of others if we behave in a similar fashion?
As I said, if 'fat' jokes are wrong when applied to John Prescott then they must also be wrong when applied to Eric Pickles.

I do think you have this the wrong way around oboogie.

I all honesty I think it is wrong to criticize people based on things they have no control of. To be frank if someone made a nasty comment about my physical attributes I would think, "it sucks to be you" and ostracize them rather than engage in tit for tat.

I am not saying that you do not have the right to be pissed of with people who engage in such tit for tat.

I was trying to argue from the perspective of Burchill.

Although I know you would not engage in such behaviour try this for pure argument's sake.

oboogie walks into a room and makes a nasty criticism of someone's physical characteristics. Someone retorts with a nasty comment about something you have no control of.

Would it be reasonable for you to say "you cannot do that"?

[oboogie]

Although I know you would not engage in such behaviour try this for pure argument's sake.

oboogie walks into a room and makes a nasty criticism of someone's physical characteristics. Someone retorts with a nasty comment about something you have no control of.

Would it be reasonable for you to say "you cannot do that"?

Your scenario doesn't work Rob.
Your first line is the critical one. Why would I resort to behaviour which I despise in others? It just wouldn't happen.
For example, if a black man insulted me I might tell him to fuck off but it would never occur to me to bring race into it no matter how he had insulted me, because, however angry I am, his race is not the reason and irrelevant.

[Big Rob]

Why would I resort to behaviour which I despise in others? It just wouldn't happen.

I agree. I was using it for the sake of argumentation.

OK try again.

If someone criticizes others for things they cannot control would it be reasonable for that person to complain if they were criticized for something they cannot control?

[oboogie]

Why would I resort to behaviour which I despise in others? It just wouldn't happen.

I agree. I was using it for the sake of argumentation.

OK try again.

If someone criticizes others for things they cannot control would it be reasonable for that person to complain if they were criticized for something they cannot control?

Yes, because it's still wrong. "He started it" doesn't make it ok.
If a Muslim makes an anti-Semitic remark to a Jew and the Jew responds by calling him a "F***ing P**i" then he's no better than the Muslim. They are both in the wrong. Equally.

[Big Rob]

I am not saying they are not both wrong.

I am saying if someone treats others like shit do they have a right to complain when they are treated like shit?

[oboogie]

I am not saying they are not both wrong.

I know you're not.

I am saying if someone treats others like shit do they have a right to complain when they are treated like shit?

It depends upon the specific circumstances but generally yes.
As it says in Malcolm's signature "What use is this site if it is just a mirror image of the attitudes we dislike at the Daily Mail?"

[Malcolm Armsteen]

If we're onto my sig line, I think that there is a certain leeway for bitchy remarks. It was never intended to drive out humour or satire.

[Big Rob]

It depends upon the specific circumstances but generally yes.

Well that's where I disagree, to an extent.

As I said I would probably walk away from such a person. I may retort depending on the 'specific circumstances' but there you go.

If someone who treats others like shit and then complains about being treated like shit themselves then I, for one, would say tough shit.

[oboogie]

If we're onto my sig line, I think that there is a certain leeway for bitchy remarks. It was never intended to drive out humour or satire.

Of course Malcolm. But Rob and I were discussing insults, not humour.

[oboogie]

It depends upon the specific circumstances but generally yes.

Well that's where I disagree, to an extent.

As I said I would probably walk away from such a person. I may retort depending on the 'specific circumstances' buy there you go.

If someone who treats others like shit and then complains about being treated like shit themselves then I, for one, would say tough shit.

This is why we need specifics. I would happily call Michael Gove a cunt, but I would never call him a Scottish cunt because that would imply I thought there was something wrong with being Scottish.
If tomorrow I find out that something bad has happened to him I will probably laugh. But it depends what it is. If it's a personal tragedy I won't.

[Big Rob]

Oh I agree I wouldn't do that.

However if Michael Gove called a Welsh person a Welsh cunt and that Welsh person called him a Scottish cunt and then Michael Gove said, "You cannot insult people based on their nationality", then I would think that Michael Gove is a complete cunt.

[davidjay]

Oh I agree I wouldn't do that.

However if Michael Gove called a Welsh person a Welsh cunt and that Welsh person called him a Scottish cunt and then Michael Gove said, "You cannot insult people based on their nationality", then I would think that Michael Gove is a complete cunt.

Only then?