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By Abernathy
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#616213
Catkins wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:21 pm
I'm always been inclined to agree with Simone de Beauvoir's rather simple take on gender identity :
Then, for example, you have to accept that 1 in 50 male prisoners in the UK, who identify as female, ought to be moved to female prisons, along with Karen White.
Do I? Well, why wouldn't I? (NB - this is all hypothetical, since I have not formed a settled view on this).
 
By Catkins
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#616236
Do I? Well, why wouldn't I? (NB - this is all hypothetical, since I have not formed a settled view on this).
Well, it's pretty likely that people who are convicted and in prison, might be more likely than not to be dishonest about their intentions!

The UN (in its Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners) has always said that prisons should be sex-segregated as women prisoners are extremely vulnerable and also likely to have been sexually abused outside prison.

Karen White is not a one off - there's a group compensation case going through at the moment against HMCTS from a number of women who have been abused by transwomen in women's prisons. 50% of transwomen prisoners are sex offenders - far higher than the percentage of cis-male sex offenders in prison.

This entire debate actually hinges on access to sex-segregated spaces where women are vulnerable - rape crisis centres, refuges, psychiatric wards, prisons etc - which often get characterised as 'why can't a transwoman pee where she wants'.

I've never come across a feminist who wants transwomen harmed, or gives a toss how someone wants to dress in public. But if transwomen are saying they can't use male spaces because males are violent, then they have to accept that many women don't want them in female spaces...because males are violent.

Third spaces are the best option. Not women being made to bunk up and put as risk as human shields.

[And can I say that while I suspect that Abers disagrees with me, it's a pleasure to debate this in a civilised manner, and not be subject to threats]
 
By Abernathy
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#616250
It seems to me that you must be right about third spaces. I can see that the argument that protected spaces for women must include prisons and that generally speaking, there is a good case for not permitting transitioning inmates from male prisons to transfer into female prisons. Karen White would appear to have set a precedent that would not admit a general policy of permitting transfers on request.

That said, transitioning individuals in male prisons must be having a hard time too, and on the basis of Simone de Beauvoir's "Occam's Razor" assessment, it's surely the case that this aspect needs to be addressed too.

In which case, a "third space" seems the obvious solution.
 
By Kreuzberger
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#616278
This Third-Space solution would appear to have merits but I doubt that it is that straightforward. If trans women mirror, in any way, the general prison population - both men and cis women - most really shouldn't be inside and some really should. That would be quite some environment in which to place many highly vulnerable people.

I have no solutions but I welcome the opportunity to finally contribute at least something to the debate.
Abernathy liked this
 
By lord_kobel
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#616431
visage wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:13 am
Its dismissed as being vanishingly unlikely, but I think given the repercussions its something that needs to be explained before we should proceed.
No one is currently checking what is in people pants before letting them in the toilets. There is nothing in self id that would be more of a risk than what already happens today.
 
By lord_kobel
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#616432
Malcolm Armsteen wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:01 pm
I do love the way that any disagreement makes a person a phobe. It’s so puerile.
I've given you several links which list the specific transphobic lies that Rowling used. Did you actually read it?

Are you really incabable of handling the fact that you might be wrong about something? That you hold biases and attitudes which are outdated and bigoted? Is that realisation that much of a blow to your ego?
 
By lord_kobel
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#616433
Andy McDandy wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:44 pm
I just think that there must be some method of weeding out the piss takers and perverts,
I would hope that at the moment anyone, cis, trans, man, woman, acting dodgy in public toilets would be removed under current laws. There's no reason for be a dick to all trans people out of fear of the "other".
 
By lord_kobel
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#616434
mr angry manchester wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:18 pm
I'm with TWA on this. The vast bulk of people see this kind of stuff as seriously weird and it gets associated in the public mind with what is defined as "the left"

It has the effect of assisting working class voters towards right wing populists.
The same was said about standing up to racism.
 
By lord_kobel
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#616437
Malcolm Armsteen wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:52 pm
The matter now, it seems to me and I may be wrong, comes down to self-identification, and cases where non-trans men - some wearing beards ffs - have entered women's spaces and justified that by 'self identifying'.
So cis men acting like pricks. No reason to shit on trans women. If they're being dodgy, they can be kicked out.

Malcolm Armsteen wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:52 pm
However, if someone uses that situation to assault, intimidate or seek gratification by invading women's spaces they can never again be allowed to self-identify. They have shown themselves for what they are, and should be treated as such.
But this doesn't happen. That's the point.

Malcolm Armsteen wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:52 pm
But the constant hectoring from the likes of Kobel says much more about them than about the very tricky moral choices and decisions that have to be made.
Abusing people, ascribing views to them that they don't in fact hold, treating allies as enemies and flaunting their right-on purity I find to be as distasteful as any other extremist ideology.
So the "if you're calling me a bigot, I might as well be a bigot" line?

Is your problem with me that I've called out one of your friends for their shitty, bigoted posts? That seems to have been when you started flipping out. Face it, your friend is a transphobic bigot, whose posts would now be against the rules of the forum. Insisting that trans women are men and deadnaming them, denying that transwomen face abuse and murder and clinging to the dying embers of an outmoded form of feminism is not being an "ally".
 
By lord_kobel
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#616438
Catkins wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:21 pm
I challenge you to find anything hateful or bigoted in it (unless you think that it's literal violence to question any man about what he says he is).
I linked to at least two sources which pointed out the lies and bigotry a week ago.

Here they are again:
lord_kobel wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:50 pm
Sorry? What, exactly do you think is bollocks? The fact that Rowling's big blog post was a huge pile of lies? Here's a handy walk through for you:


Not got time for the full walk through? Here's a short form article which includes some of the same points:
This Is The Sequel J.K. Rowling Doesn’t Want You To Read

Or how about:
An open letter to J.K. Rowling


Not sure where the ablism comes in? Here's a direct link:


 
By lord_kobel
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#616439
Catkins wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:36 pm
50% of transwomen prisoners are sex offenders - far higher than the percentage of cis-male sex offenders in prison.
I've asked for this before. 50% of how many? Is that size population large enough to draw meaningful conclusions?
Catkins wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:36 pm

But if transwomen are saying they can't use male spaces because males are violent, then they have to accept that many women don't want them in female spaces...because males are violent.
But transwomen are women, not men. That's the point.
 
By Catkins
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#616440
I've asked for this before. 50% of how many? Is that size population large enough to draw meaningful conclusions?
I answered this before as you claimed it could be 1 of 2 people, skewing the stats. It's 60 out of 125 so yes, enough to draw a meaningful conclusion.
But transwomen are women, not men. That's the point.
The point is they are not. This is a religiousmantra with no basis in reality - God accidentally plopping male souls in female bodies. It's a cult.
I linked to at least two sources which pointed out the lies and bigotry a week ago.
Ah, Andrew J Carter who was last seen on twitter trying to mansplain the prison service to a prison governor.

So you can't point out anything that was wrong in the article.

To save time, I shall link you to the rebuttal to the rebuttal.


 
By The Weeping Angel
Membership Days Posts
#616444
Catkins wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:04 pm
I've asked for this before. 50% of how many? Is that size population large enough to draw meaningful conclusions?
I answered this before as you claimed it could be 1 of 2 people, skewing the stats. It's 60 out of 125 so yes, enough to draw a meaningful conclusion.
But transwomen are women, not men. That's the point.
The point is they are not. This is a religiousmantra with no basis in reality - God accidentally plopping male souls in female bodies. It's a cult.
I linked to at least two sources which pointed out the lies and bigotry a week ago.
Ah, Andrew J Carter who was last seen on twitter trying to mansplain the prison service to a prison governor.

So you can't point out anything that was wrong in the article.

To save time, I shall link you to the rebuttal to the rebuttal.


Wow you mean that Andrew J Carter isn't some brave man off the street standing up to an evil bigot but is instead a bit of bellend.
 
By Malcolm Armsteen
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#616446
lord_kobel wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:22 pm
mr angry manchester wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:18 pm
I'm with TWA on this. The vast bulk of people see this kind of stuff as seriously weird and it gets associated in the public mind with what is defined as "the left"

It has the effect of assisting working class voters towards right wing populists.
The same was said about standing up to racism.
Nonsense. False equivalence.
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