Topics about the Labour Party
:sunglasses: 73.7 % ❤ 1 % :thumbsup: 6.1 % 😯 1 % :grinning: 11.1 % 🧥 1 % 🙏 1 % 😟 1 % :cry: 1 % :shit: 3 %
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:12 pm
As far as we're concerned on here, I think the discussion of this difficult subject has been mostly good, on all sides.
This is true for many a discussion on here. People making measured points and taking on board the engagement of others whose opinions and perspectives we respect, allowing an issue to develop.

It might not be perfect but...
Tubby Isaacs liked this
This from Anthony Julius is an interesting observation of Corbyn. I saw Corbyn as an old fashioned conservative Middle England guy at heart who might play well with pensioners in marginals. I had gardening in mind rather than Jew bashing but it wasn't a bad assessment of who he is.
But recall Corbyn’s disparagement of ‘Zionists who, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, they don’t understand English irony.’ My friend David Hirsh got it right: Corbyn was enjoying the old, sneery English view of Jews, and he was doing it to humiliate the Jews he was talking about. They live among us but they’re not really one of us.

“This wasn’t Corbyn’s usual political antisemitism. It was a spillover into ordinary old-fashioned English antisemitism. It was as if the political requirement to humiliate the ‘Zionists’ found its words in the antisemitic subconscious of an English middle-class man. This, from the ‘lifelong campaigner against antisemitism,’ as a Labour spokesperson described him.” ... ian-609360
I think that nails it. In one sense, Corbyn is exactly like those sort of people who voted brexit because they have a nebulous dislike of foreign people but not specifically their Polish next-door neighbours who are lovely.

Corbyn will absolutely oppose antisemitism in the sense of denouncing neo-Nazi thugs. While simultaneously not being that bothered (and being very, very bad at disguising the fact he's not bothered) when Jewish people are the butt of jokes or get stick 'because Israel' etc.

Or to put it another way, if the victim isn't victimy enough for him, he doesn't 'get' it. People to be unquestioningly supported are poor, oppressed, bombed, living in squalour or have a very obvious 'difference' such as sexuality or skin tone. They're not comfortably off living in a 2-bed semi in Greater London and they look like him, regardless of whether someone has stuck a bit of paper through their letterbox saying they hope they get gassed or not. And when the latter group do get some support, it's usually with the caveat of also lumping in 'all forms of bigotry' (and for maximum points, a mention of Palestinians). Because the abuse they face doesn't reach the threshold for him unless a sweetener is tacked on.

Similarly, if it happens to be a socialist doing the oppressing or an enemy of the USA doing the bombing, he tends to be far more lenient on them.

And all this is bloody obvious. Yes, he gets a stupidly biased run in the press (that nonsense about the Queen's Speech in the Mail today, for example). But even if he didn't, this issue would still exist and he and his team are terrible at addressing it and he personally is terrible at empathy when it's with a group in one of his blind spots.

That's why for some he will always be unacceptable as a leader, and it's absolutely on Labour that this hasn't been recognised or dealt with in any meaningful way at all (for example, imagine the difference in voting if it had been announced Corbyn would lead for this election, deliver the second referendum if in govt. and then step down after the result so everything post-brexit one way or the other began with a clean slate).
The small silver lining is that it all largely backs up what many of us have thought - the issue is indifference and a lack of understanding at the top (with a dash of cronyism and conspiracy theory) rather than malice. The problem is the signal that that is clearly giving to people further down who are much more malignant in intent.

It reminds of our neighbours from a while back when the husband told the wife about the affair he had, it showed how much he cared about their marriage because he told her he was shagging her best mate.
First of all, apologies to anyone offended by this. It's a thought I've been growing recently, I realised what it was this afternoon and it's not something I'm particularly proud of. But please bear with me and tell me what you think:

I was listening to Shelagh Fogarty this afternoon and a Jewish caller rang in to say how relieved he was, how he and his friends/family were all relieved, how he could breathe again after weeks of worry, and thanked the electorate for being so good to him and them. It seemed to me that in some way sections of the Jewish community seem to care about no form of discrimination other than the one they suffer from and to believe that anti-Semitism is worse than any other. I can appreciate that centuries of pogroms culminating in the Holocaust would understandably lead to serious concerns, but as far as I can see - and I'm willing to be corrected on this - anti-Semitism in Britain is confined to the more extreme fringes of the anti-Zionist movement and the odd Nazi barking at the moon. There is no-one expounding these views with the same sort of platform as Hatey Katy or Steven Yaxley-Lennon enjoy, no newspapers where Jews are seen as the enemy within, no significant political parties calling for discrimination against Judaism and nothing like the levels of Islamophobia amongst large sections of the community. There may be many Jews who feared a Labour government, but I believe that Muslims, Eastern Europeans and anyone who looks a bit foreign currently have more to worry about, and those who celebrate the defeat of Labour loudest don't seem all that fussed about anyone else being beaten up in the street. Is it selfishness, over-dramatisation, or am I completely in the wrong?
Last edited by davidjay on Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Samanfur liked this
Much to agree with there, @davidjay

This manufactured outrage* was never about standing up for Jews.

Like or loathe the Canary, this isn't good news. Who's next?

* Yes, antisemitism exists. In all walks of society, to greater and lesser extents. To see it used as a convenient (some might say bought-and-paid-for) stick to beat Labour in general and Corbyn in particular with, to be regularly wheeled out in a one-sided deflective argument has been a defining feature of this election. It has cost those who campaign for a fairer, inclusive society, indeed society itself - and that includes voiciferous and misguided - maybe misdirected would be a better word - Jews dearly. The forces of discrimination and persecution are about to be unleashed, and not by the Labour Party.

Monday, 9 December 2019
Using a phrase can do political work: memes and antisemitism. ... -work.html
One meme - or catch-phrase or cliche that has emerged in the last few years is 'antisemitism in the Labour Party'. As a phrase it sounds logical and contained. But pause a moment and think, why should something like antisemitism be restricted to one section of the population? Who decided that the spread or extent of antisemitism should be sliced off from other areas in society? In fact, it's that slicing off that is ideological. A choice was made to attach 'in the Labour Party' to the word 'antisemitism'. This becomes clear to us if you attach alternative phrases and ask why they didn't become memes. 'Antisemitism in politics' or 'Antisemitism in political parties', or 'Antisemitism in public life'.

If, of course antisemitism was restricted to 'in the Labour Party' we might say, 'fair enough'. But if we were to find antisemitism in other parts of political life, party political life, or indeed in the other main political party, then the phrase 'antisemitism in the Labour Party' starts to sound like a trick, a means by which we don't or can't consider antisemitism in public life, or in the Tory Party.
for background, see also this previous blog post from the same author.
davidjay liked this
The Red Arrow wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:00 am

This manufactured outrage* was never about standing up for Jews.

This is something I should have added, if only in the interests of balance. The outrage WAS manufactured - the loudest voices came from those who would happily close all mosques and send them all back where they came from. They care no more about Jewish persecution than they do about animal rights when condemning halal.
Samanfur, Zuriblue liked this
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