Topics about the Labour Party
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By Abernathy
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#619957
I’ve been thinking a lot about Corbyn’s latest bit of trouble-making (his outrageous assertion that the 2017 election campaign was actively sabotaged by Labour Party staff).

It’s become clear very quickly that Corbyn and the rump of his cult following are simply determined to, as they see it, wreak vengeance on the “centrists” for this despicable act of sabotage. That vengeance, will, if necessary, seemingly even extend to sabotaging Sir Keir Starmer’s efforts to lead the party back to government (and in the process condemning us all to at least another 5 years of Tory misery and corruption).

They aren’t about to go away of their own volition, either. There are four years to go until the next election, and more of this really will dash Labour’s hopes of success in 2024.

What has also become clear is that there is no prospect – none whatsoever – of unity with the cranks and cultists, including Corbyn himself, and, what is more, there never has been. I frankly lost count of the number of times when, expressing misgivings about Corbyn’s leadership, I was told “Why don’t we all just unite behind Jeremy and concentrate on fighting the Tories instead of arguing amongst ourselves? “. Now I hear virtually the same refrain from some of those of a more, shall we say, simplistic frame of mind in support of Keir Starmer : “ Why don’t we all just unite behind Keir and concentrate on fighting the Tories instead of arguing amongst ourselves? “

There is a difference, of course. Expressing misgivings about Corbyn’s appalling leadership was done sincerely, out of concern for the way that Corbyn was leading the party down an electoral cul-de-sac. In other words, criticism of Corbyn was legitimate, and entirely justified. The same cannot be said of criticisms from The Cult of Keir Starmer. With barely 5 months in post, Starmer has made a remarkable impact. He has already established himself as the electorate’s preferred Prime Minister over Johnson, has skewered Johnson effortlessly and mercilessly at every PMQ session since Johnson returned from illness, and has begun to narrow the gap with the Tories in opinion polling. Nevertheless, the Corbyn tribe still manages to manufacture utterly spurious grounds for criticism of Starmer, as if it were their bounden duty so to do. And in a way, it is.

At the root of this is that Corbynism is above all a mind set. A mind set that says that Labour under Blair and its thirteen years in power was worthless and might as well have been the Tories governing. A mind set that dismisses anyone in the party that dares to disagree as “neo-liberals”. A mind set that casts Blair-ites, Brown-ites, and above all “centrists” not as comrades with a common objective within a “broad church” party, but as mortal enemies. “Red Tories”.
Now, there may well have been a few within the party who shared this mind set before Corbyn ascended to the leadership, but it is to be regretted that the several thousand new members who joined the party, inspired by Corbyn, bought into this poisonous mode of thought wholesale, and cling to it still. It means that the mind set has burgeoned and swollen, and has become a monster.

Surely no-one can deny that this poses a very serious problem for the party. Keir Starmer in his leadership campaign made much of striving for party unity, and on the face of it that is a laudable objective. But what if party unity is unachievable? What if a public image of a united party – essential, we are told, to attaining government – simply cannot be presented thanks to the continuing sniping from Corbyn and his band of cranks ? Because we are up against a mind set, and a determined one, it is all but impossible effectively to combat it.

Logically, and effectively, the Corbynite mind set means that the Labour Party is in fact now two parties. The Corbynites, with their dolchstosslegende mind set, and the mainstream of the party membership, who voted for Keir Starmer and who desperately want him to lead the party back to government. The party can no longer be regarded as the “broad church” that so many fondly imagine it to be.Unity between the two parties is, to all intents and purposes, simply not achievable - nor perhaps even desirable.

Considered in this way, the conclusion is inescapable. The continued existence of a destructive Corbynite sect within the party cannot be tolerated. Expulsion is the obvious, and increasingly, I feel, unavoidable course of action. I sense that Starmer is simply waiting for both the ECHR report and the Forde Enquiry Report to be published before taking decisive action. I certainly hope so.
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By Boiler
Posts
#619958
And the press will not just have a field day with that, but the Tories will bring it up at every opportunity whilst you'd now have a VERY noisy excommunicated rabble trying to piss into the Labour tent. Big unions will walk away and take their money with them.

I hope people bring waterproofs and galoshes because that tent will be worse than any piss dungeon. I worry the cult of Corbyn has now damaged the Labour Party beyond repair, especially amongst the electorate. You only have to see the mindset of the Brexity poster I reproduced to see that.

I have no doubt that Starmer is the enemy now - not Johnson - and only his removal will do.
 
By Kreuzberger
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#619960
The press will not have a field day. No one beyond the outer reaches of Twitter gives a monkey's and it doesn't sell newspapers.

Running the Labour press office is the easiest job in politics at the moment
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By spoonman
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#619967
Boiler wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:56 pm
I have no doubt that Starmer is the enemy now - not Johnson - and only his removal will do.
Looking in from the outside of the tent here, in my view Starmer is the enemy of those whom see Labour as an enduring party of protest rather than a (future) party of governance. It's an immature attitude reminiscent of the worst of Student Union "all or nothing" politicking. Back in 2015 I was willing to give Corbyn a go, but my respect for him - especially in the last 12 months - has severely diminished as time has gone on to the point of near contempt. His minions may like to bang on about the 2017 election, but they forget several things - (i) they still failed to either get a plurality of seats or lead a coalition government as a result, (ii) they screwed it all up in 2019, and no you didn't "win the argument", and (iii) it's become increasingly clear as time has went on that the "success" of 2017 was in spite of Corbyn, not because of him - especially with May blowing such a big lead in opinion polling. A substantial portion of the electorate were willing to give a vote to Labour as a cry for help concerning Brexit, only for Corbyn and his acolytes to treat such a call with contempt.

Yeah, the tounge-in-cheek saying about how if you're not willing to stand by the leader of the Labour party then you should fuck off and join the Tories? Maybe Momentum should do just that, because everything that has came out over Corbyn et al in the past six months reveals a mendacity with flat out denials 'til their blue in the face to purely lie and take no responsibility for their actions that is right up there with Johnso... sorry, Cummings' himself and his cabinet. Two sides of the same shitty coin that deserve each other.
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By Abernathy
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#619987
Boiler wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:56 pm
And the press will not just have a field day with that, but the Tories will bring it up at every opportunity
Why would they do that? An expulsion of Trots from the party would put down a very public marker that Labour would now be free from the malign influence of Corbyn and Momentum and safe, therefore, to vote for once again. Labour can only benefit in electoral terms from such a perception. It would be very odd for the Tories to want to highlight that at every opportunity.
whilst you'd now have a VERY noisy excommunicated rabble trying to piss into the Labour tent. Big unions will walk away and take their money with them.
Well, they may be a noisy rabble, but they'd not be part of the Labour Party. A Labour Party that people can now vote for once again with complete confidence. They'd be an irrelevant sect of cranks shouting into a (non Labour) bucket. Unite might decide to take their ball home - to a certain extent that depends who succeeds Uncle Len - but ultimately that's a price worth paying.
I worry the cult of Corbyn has now damaged the Labour Party beyond repair, especially amongst the electorate.
Which is precisely why the Cult needs now to be excised. It's plain that they want a fight. I cannot see that Starmer now has any alternative other than to give them one. And I can only repeat that such a purge will meet with the overwhelming approval of voters.
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By Boiler
Posts
#619990
Abernathy wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:36 am
Boiler wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:56 pm
And the press will not just have a field day with that, but the Tories will bring it up at every opportunity
Why would they do that? An expulsion of Trots from the party would put down a very public marker that Labour would now be free from the malign influence of Corbyn and Momentum and safe, therefore, to vote for once again. Labour can only benefit in electoral terms from such a perception. It would be very odd for the Tories to want to highlight that at every opportunity.
Not at all. It would be painted as Stalinist behaviour that would next be carried out on you, the hard-working British taxpayer.
Abernathy wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:36 am
whilst you'd now have a VERY noisy excommunicated rabble trying to piss into the Labour tent. Big unions will walk away and take their money with them.
Well, they may be a noisy rabble, but they'd not be part of the Labour Party. A Labour Party that people can now vote for once again with complete confidence. They'd be an irrelevant sect of cranks shouting into a (non Labour) bucket. Unite might decide to take their ball home - to a certain extent that depends who succeeds Uncle Len - but ultimately that's a price worth paying.
Who says it'll stop with Len? There's more than a few Corbynite leaders who may just do the same. And those "cranks" might just set up their own political party - it'll not attract too much attention one hopes, but it may just split the vote enough in critical areas.
Abernathy wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:36 am
I worry the cult of Corbyn has now damaged the Labour Party beyond repair, especially amongst the electorate.
Which is precisely why the Cult needs now to be excised. It's plain that they want a fight. I cannot see that Starmer now has any alternative other than to give them one. And I can only repeat that such a purge will meet with the overwhelming approval of voters.
Who are probably more preoccupied with Brexit - 'The Poster From Stoke' I've quoted from time to time here is an example of people Labour needs to win back and if I'm honest, I doubt he and his ilk will ever vote Labour again, although in this instance somehow I don't think he ever did. Labour needs to overturn a big perception problem - that it's a party just for the metropolitan Chattering Classes, the Guardian readers who step over the homeless as they get out of their electric 4x4s to get to the Free-trade co-operatively run supermarket, clutching a single-bean Fair Trade soy latte.

I dunno, maybe I'm just over-thinking this and taking the chatter of Twitter too seriously - but remember, there isn't a mainstream journo without a Twitter account.

I've got my fiver ready, hope you have too.
 
By Abernathy
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#619997
Boiler wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:08 pm

Not at all. It would be painted as Stalinist behaviour that would next be carried out on you, the hard-working British taxpayer.


Seems a bit fanciful to me. What is it that would happen to you next? Being expelled from the Ramblers Club? I think the Daily Mail would need to be pretty desperate before they tried that tactic.

Who says it'll stop with Len? There's more than a few Corbynite leaders who may just do the same. And those "cranks" might just set up their own political party - it'll not attract too much attention one hopes, but it may just split the vote enough in critical areas.


Well, no. Of the big unions other than Unite, both Unison and the GMB are about to undergo changes of leader. Particularly with the GMB, it's not likely that they will elect a Corbynite. As for setting up a new party - I see no downside in that whatsoever. I don't think it's a serious proposition that such a party could split the Labour vote to any significant degree.
Who are probably more preoccupied with Brexit - 'The Poster From Stoke' I've quoted from time to time here is an example of people Labour needs to win back and if I'm honest, I doubt he and his ilk will ever vote Labour again, although in this instance somehow I don't think he ever did. Labour needs to overturn a big perception problem - that it's a party just for the metropolitan Chattering Classes, the Guardian readers who step over the homeless as they get out of their electric 4x4s to get to the Free-trade co-operatively run supermarket, clutching a single-bean Fair Trade soy latte.
Thing is, there is and will be more at stake than whether Labour is perceived as a party for the metro chattering classes (which was almost true for the 13 years of Blair/Brown government, but didn't seem to do us any significant damage). It's just been confirmed that the UK is now officially in the depths of a coronavirus recession - the economy shrank by 21% in the past quarter, the worst of any G7 nation. With the Brexit shambles racking up unemployment to horrendous levels and bringing further depredations, Johnson's government will be in even more trouble than it is now. All Labour has to do while this nightmare unfolds is ensure that it is perceived as the alternative government. In those circumstances, voters will elect the alternative government.
I dunno, maybe I'm just over-thinking this and taking the chatter of Twitter too seriously - but remember, there isn't a mainstream journo without a Twitter account.
Aye, maybe. I have a Twitter account myself, but I virtually never use the service - it's too frantic.
I've got my fiver ready, hope you have too.
I've ironed it specially.
oboogie liked this
#620003
Things worth bearing in mind:
1. Despite all his moaning and backstabbing over the years, Corbyn has never shown the slightest hint of giving up his safe seat, nice salary and zero-effort re-election lock in in favour of striking out on his own. Nor have any of his chums. Because nothing shows how popular you really, personally are than asking people to vote specifically for you and not your long-established national party.
2. If they had anything better than a few selectively quoted WhatsApp messages and wishful thinking hindsight re-assessments of how money could be spent (such as, for example, proof), we would already know about it.
3. Big voices could cause havoc outside of Labour if they get shown the door? Here’s 2 for you: Ken Livingstone and George Galloway. Both now considered cranks, any good they once did long forgotten. Corbyn would go the same way - because once you need to go big to get attention, the only way to do it is to go extreme.
4. Every major decision they made - on Brexit, on giving Johnson his election, on electoral pacts, on a govt. of national unity, on antisemitism, on handling the press on antisemitism, on dealing with the press in general, on policy for the European elections, on spending in the 2019 election, and even the leaking of the report supposed to let them off the hook - was incompetent and badly handled, and the more control they had, the worse they were. With no assistance outside their ranks and no income, even if they decided to form a new party it will become obsessed with purity and worthiness and would implode under its own self-righteousness. Because their biggest enemy has always, ALWAYS been themselves and their delusions of grandeur and self-importance.
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By Tubby Isaacs
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#620006
Big voices could cause havoc outside of Labour if they get shown the door? Here’s 2 for you: Ken Livingstone and George Galloway. Both now considered cranks, any good they once did long forgotten. Corbyn would go the same way - because once you need to go big to get attention, the only way to do it is to go extreme.
I don't think that comparison really works, nor any other I can think of, like Militant under Kinnock.

Corbyn was unchallenged as the leader only 9 months ago. You don't fade from that position this quickly. Galloway wasn't trusted, not just because of his Saddam nonsense but as an alpha male a bit too fond of the good life. Livingstone was yonks past it (notwithstanding Jez's attempt to tap his expertise on nuclear weapons).

Jez is less than a year away from being the unchallenged leader. Much more significant than the others.
 
By Abernathy
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#620008
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:57 pm
The people who took these decisions weren't trying their best for Labour. They're rather the Tories won more seats.This needs investigating.
Don't believe that for a second. It is being investigated, though - by the Forde Committee. And Steve Lapsley ? Give me strength.
#620010
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:57 pm
The people who took these decisions weren't trying their best for Labour. They're rather the Tories won more seats.This needs investigating.

Oh hang on.

Not to mention sending activists to places like Chingford and Uxbridge and flooding Finchley and Golders Green with activits just to spite Luciana Berger.
 
By Tubby Isaacs
Membership Days Membership Days Posts
#620012
Here's another well chosen campaing stop.

https://www.aberystwyth-today.co.uk/article.cfm
Jeremy Corbyn was spotted in Aberystwyth this morning, as he visits Wales on the campaign trail.

The Labour leader was in Pembrokeshire on Saturday, and on Sunday morning, his campaign bus was on the promenade in Aberystwyth.

Mr Corbyn tweeted this photo on Sunday morning, saying: "A vote for Labour on the 12th December is a vote to restore hope.

"Together, we can create a better world for our children and grandchildren.

#Aberystwyth"
Labour came fourth (Ceredigion). Seat was held by Plaid Cymru anyway.

Actually, maybe he was only passing through en routebetween better seats, I hear you cry.

Sounds like he was here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preseli_P ... stituency)

Lost by only 314 in 2017. Lost by 5000 in 2019.

But if they really believed they'd had their legs sawn off by "Remainers", they wouldn't have bothered with Preseli Pembs (55% Leave) anyway.
#620013
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:52 pm
Corbyn was unchallenged as the leader only 9 months ago. You don't fade from that position this quickly. Galloway wasn't trusted, not just because of his Saddam nonsense but as an alpha male a bit too fond of the good life. Livingstone was yonks past it (notwithstanding Jez's attempt to tap his expertise on nuclear weapons).

Jez is less than a year away from being the unchallenged leader. Much more significant than the others.
But it wasn’t a lack of challenge from a position of strength. If it had have been, then Long-Bailey would have romped home. It wasn’t from a position of popularity, because he died on his arse.

He went unchallenged because he either had to win or quit. He believed his own hype, failed, and lost. The myth that he’d pull in a huge youth turnout, that it really was all votes for him in 2017 and not votes against May, and that people were desperate for a socialist government was broken, whatever the excuses made.

He was unchallenged because he was already doomed. Those not in his close circle would have wanted to keep their powder dry so as not to go too early and be accused by other challengers of disloyalty, damaging the party before an election etc. Those in his circle couldn’t move before he resigned because they’d risk not receiving the nod.
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