:sunglasses: 100 %
User avatar
By Abernathy
#17612
Cyclist wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:30 pm @Abernathy
Firstly, I am not including JK Rowling, or others like her, in the TERF category. She has demonstrated time and again that she is not transphobic.


We’re in agreement, then, that Rowling’s views are entirely reasonable. I’m still slightly bewildered at the amount of vitriol that she has received for those rather modest, and clearly expressed views.
I am referring to the likes of Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull AKA Posie Parker

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/kellie-jay-k ... l-07011451

Harry Miller, the now ex-copper and EDL supporter who was sacked for posting "gender critical" bollocks, and tweeting "This country needs Tommy Robinson"

https://www.faircop.org.uk/case-studies/harry-miller/

Kate Scottow, who ran a campaign of abuse and harassment against a Trans woman

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ad ... /3421.html

And other charming individuals of their ilk.


Not much info on those links, other than Ms Scottow’s successful appeal judgement. Other than that, they all seem to be people complaining that their right to free speech has been unfairly impinged on by police warning them about supposedly inflammatory remarks made online. Which makes me immediately suspicious (see “golliwogs” passim as well as your mention of the EDF). But I think I need to find out more about what these individuals are supposed to have said before forming a definite opinion. I’m otherwise more than happy to accept your assertion that there are thoroughly nasty and vindictive individuals involved in passing offensive “opinions” about trans people, since there is such a proliferation of such individuals opining offensively and counter to decent, progressive thinking on all kinds of other matters.


Right. Now for your questions.

I know the fear of attack by male pervs is real, and I'm not dismissing it. But, the haters are stoking up this fear of something which statistically is extremely unlikely to happen and making it a big issue, simply to confuse the issues and generate hate against their target group.
I do not doubt that they are, if they are the sort of hateful individuals that you say they are. I need to ask again, though, what is their motivation for doing this ?
It is a side-issue
I don’t think it is. However statistically remote it might be, and whatever the “haters”may do to play it up, it is, in my view, a legitimate issue of concern in connection with the proposals for changes in the law around gender self-declaration.
and, I repeat, extremely rare. It doesn't mean it should be ignored, but it really shouldn't have the prominence the haters give it.


I agree on both counts. But it is nevertheless an entirely legitimate concern. As Malcolm says, the law needs to cover all of the bases.
Women are statistically in more danger of being attacked by their own partner in their own home than by a strange man in a leisure centre changing room. I cannot stress this enough, if it really is such a big issue, why does it happen so rarely?
Well, it’s an issue because it is linked to the proposals around changes to the law concerning self gender declaration, regardless of rarely it occurs. The legitimate concern is, I’d suggest, that the legal changes could lead to an increase in the incidence of such assaults.
I know many cyclists (me included) who have been told by non-cyclists that it is too dangerous to ride on the road, and if you do, an untimely death is inevitable.
Well, again, you know that it isn’t true that if you cycle on the road an untimely death is likely to befall you, but that does not stop some people from having concerns that remain legitimate, regardless of how unlikely it is, as an experienced cyclist, in your view.
Actual danger Vs perceived danger is a whole fascinating topic in itself.
Perhaps, but I might gently suggest that in the context of this particular discussion, it isn’t at all relevant.
Maybe I should have said lesbian attacks are perceived to be less of a danger than attacks by men, even though they are less rare than most people (me included) realise, though still not an everyday thing. I'm going on my admittedly limited knowledge of women, but the ones I have talked to say they feel less uncomfortable undressed around strange women than they do dressed around strange men. It's this perception of danger thing again
.

See above.
Maybe bringing Niemoller into it on this side of the Atlantic is a bit over-dramatic, but when you see some of the people British TERFs have shared platforms with, and are accepting funds from, you have to wonder
.

It may just be part of a continuum of irrational hatred, encompassing not just transphobia, but homophobia, racism, anti-vax, and climate change. You can add Brexit mania into the mix on this side of the pond.


Right. Now I'm going to indulge in a bit of life, and then plunge into a thread currently 55 pages long, each page containing 25 looong posts, to find the relevant links to American far right groups and British transphobes. I'm just going outside. I may be some time.
Looking forward to your report back. :mrgreen:
User avatar
By The Weeping Angel
#19459
Call me naive but maybe appointing someone who poses with rifles as a girl guides commisioner isn't such a good idea

https://thecritic.co.uk/misguided-or-misgendered/
Social media reports showed that Sulley, a trans woman, had posted pictures of herself on Instagram wearing dominatrix clothing, one of which was captioned “Now behave yourselves or Mistress will have to punish you #mistress.” She had also posted a picture in which she wielded what appeared to be a fake assault rifle.

The Merseyside woman, who does not wish to be named, wrote two emails expressing safeguarding concerns about the appointment: one to Girlguiding UK, and one to the local Girlguiding organisation in Southwell. She was one of a number to write such emails: in late November, Mail Online reported that Girlguiding UK was carrying out an investigation into Sulley.

She describes the emails as “rather polite” and “relatively kind”. Her daughter had been a Girl Guide, and she herself had done some volunteering with the organisation. “I thought it was a really uncontroversial, uncontentious email,” she says. It expressed her view that “this person should not be in charge of young people.” (The Critic has seen the email and can confirm her description of it. It does, however, refer to Sulley as a “male”, which may be what prompted the report to police.)

She describes the emails as “rather polite” and “relatively kind”. Her daughter had been a Girl Guide, and she herself had done some volunteering with the organisation. “I thought it was a really uncontroversial, uncontentious email,” she says. It expressed her view that “this person should not be in charge of young people.” (The Critic has seen the email and can confirm her description of it. It does, however, refer to Sulley as a “male”, which may be what prompted the report to police.)

The woman received a formal acknowledgement of her email from the national organisation, which didn’t address the particular issue she’d raised. She then heard nothing more until 7 January this year, when a police officer came to her house and told her she needed to attend the police station for an interview under caution, which “meant that I could attend voluntarily, but that if I chose not to attend I could be arrested.”
User avatar
By Abernathy
#22136
“Trans women are women” says Keir Starmer. Uncontentious, you might think, but no, this seems to have rattled Joanne Rowling’s cage big time. Not entirely sure I understand why.

Are trans women women? I dunno. What is a trans woman? It’s a woman who previously was not a woman, but is now. Apologies if that’s too simplistic, but to quote Harry Hill’s brother, “If it’s too hard, I can’t understand it.”. On that basis, Starmer’s not wrong, is he ?

Or is he?

From a political point of view, how much of a burning issue have these questions of gender identification rights become? Is it something that risks losing Labour votes? I mean the Tories certainly don’t seem to be any more enlightened on the issue - in fact, I rather imagine the opposite to be the case.

Jeebus, politics has become such a minefield in the 21st century.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... women.html
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User avatar
By Boiler
#22142
Abernathy wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:48 pm From a political point of view, how much of a burning issue have these questions of gender identification rights become? Is it something that risks losing Labour votes? I mean the Tories certainly don’t seem to be any more enlightened on the issue - in fact, I rather imagine the opposite to be the case.

Jeebus, politics has become such a minefield in the 21st century.
I think that beyond the chattering classes, certain Trades Union leaders and some disproportionately vocal individuals it's only an electoral issue to those who don't have to struggle to put food on their table, wonder where or indeed when their next job is going to be and how they can afford the latest fuel price increases.

That is, if they're not going to be irradiated to a crisp in the next three months.
User avatar
By Malcolm Armsteen
#22147
Abernathy wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:48 pm “Trans women are women” says Keir Starmer. Uncontentious, you might think, but no, this seems to have rattled Joanne Rowling’s cage big time. Not entirely sure I understand why.

Are trans women women? I dunno. What is a trans woman? It’s a woman who previously was not a woman, but is now.
I don't think anyone (certainly not here and certainly not Jo Rowling) would disagree with that. Her argument is against the idea that a man can change gender simply by asserting that he is now a woman, with no other actions or 'evidence' (such as living as a woman) on his part. This has, apparently, led to men declaring themselves to be trans and then gaining access to women-only spaces (women's refuges etc.), even prisons, where some have, allegedly, committed crimes against women.
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User avatar
By Tubby Isaacs
#22149
Boiler wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 9:03 pm
Abernathy wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:48 pm From a political point of view, how much of a burning issue have these questions of gender identification rights become? Is it something that risks losing Labour votes? I mean the Tories certainly don’t seem to be any more enlightened on the issue - in fact, I rather imagine the opposite to be the case.

Jeebus, politics has become such a minefield in the 21st century.
I think that beyond the chattering classes, certain Trades Union leaders and some disproportionately vocal individuals it's only an electoral issue to those who don't have to struggle to put food on their table, wonder where or indeed when their next job is going to be and how they can afford the latest fuel price increases.

That is, if they're not going to be irradiated to a crisp in the next three months.
You'd think so, but US Republicans are very good at turning out poor people to vote against this stuff. Can it be done here? I think many see Brexit as bringing forth a US style Republican coalition, but I'm not so sure. There's a much stronger underlying base of churchiness in the US that would get you laughed out of town in this country.

There seems to be lots of people having a pop at Labour over, as far as I can see, mostly swerving the culture war on gender identity, Lots of them seem to work for The Times, as here.



I've only met one trans person in my life. I don't have any special insight or experience, but just from that, I can see that he (as it was) didn't get up one day and think "I'm going to play at being a woman for a laugh!" She is a she, a woman. So immediately, you're having to admit a degree of complexity that might sound like a "silly answer" in an interview.

This sort of silly debate is before you get to any kind of practicalities over self-identity and sharing of spaces. As it happens, I think most of those can be resolved.
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User avatar
By Boiler
#22153
For what it's worth, I suspect that the self-identification without any of what is usually required is going to be the battleground which I suspect will be the Tories' weapon.

I know a couple of trans women myself; one has recently transitioned and was very open about it in the magazine of the society she helped found and as far as I know, everyone has been supportive.
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